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ways to increase BAB other other than leveling

Xeriar

First Post
I think for those who aren't just continuing the progression, using the best combo of 20 levels for saves and attacks.

I see a lot of incisive, hypocritical comments here. I'm not sure if its intentional, but it certainly -seems- like it. People are complaining, it is a valid balance issue, therefore it is a problem.

The solutions are easy, I don't see what the issue is or why so much -hate- exists over the issue. Some people here are getting elitist - I sure hope they never try to bring people into the hobby (thus risking them avoiding it forever).
 

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kreynolds

First Post
Xeriar said:
I see a lot of incisive, hypocritical comments here. I'm not sure if its intentional, but it certainly -seems- like it.

This was probably meant for me, and rightly so. My comments might have been harsh, but they were honest.

Xeriar said:
People are complaining, it is a valid balance issue, therefore it is a problem.

The mere act of complaining does not a balance issue make. I don't see the problem at all.

Xeriar said:
The solutions are easy, I don't see what the issue is or why so much -hate- exists over the issue. Some people here are getting elitist - I sure hope they never try to bring people into the hobby (thus risking them avoiding it forever).

I don't see what the issue is either. So you don't get an additional +1, big deal. So you don't get an extra attack, big deal. And like somebody else mentioned, your last attack is at -15 so granting it from wish must be perfectly reasonable, right? Well, if it isn't a big deal because the last attack is so worthless, then why complain about it in the first place? Would you like to know why? Because, you know, I know, we all know, that 20 levels from now, that last attack won't be so worthless.

I'm not elitist. I just see someone that has lost sight of the game.

Let me try and put this into perspective for you. Ever seen that little kid in toys-r'-us, standing in the isles screaming, "I want it! I want it! I want it!", well, there you go.

I'm perfectly reasonable in working with my player's requests, but this one just isn't worth it.

Point 1) If the last attack isn't a big deal to get from a wish because the attack itself is so worthless, then you won't care if you don't get it, right? I mean, if it's so trivial, what does it matter? (Note: this is the same kind of logic a parent would put before that kid in toys-r'-us)
Point 2) If getting that +1 BAB increase is more important to you than your character and all of your character's amazing accomplishments that all culminated into him becoming powerful to epic proportions, something to be proud of, you've lost sight or you didn't have it to begin with.
Point 3) Weapons of Speed. Haste.

Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. Ya'll can have the soapbox back now. :)
 
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rushlight

First Post
"Point 1) If the last attack isn't a big deal to get from a wish because the attack itself is so worthless, then you won't care if you don't get it, right? I mean, if it's so trivial, what does it matter?"

Well, I can't presume to speak for the player, but perhaps that's the way he envisions his character. Maybe he thinks his character is some sort of Legolas type guy, and that's what he was looking for. Or perhaps he just likes rolling the dice. More likely he had planned on getting his 4th attack on his 21st level and just found out that it wasn't possible by the ELH rules, and was looking for another way to get it. Any way it goes, it isn't all that big of a deal. I think that the 4th attack IS trivial. In fact, from my experience (and I've been playing 3e since it came out) the last attack (when you get several attacks) hits about 10% of the time, regardless of level.

"Point 2) If getting that +1 BAB increase is more important to you than your character and all of your character's amazing accomplishments that all culminated into him becoming powerful to epic proportions, something to be proud of, you've lost sight or you didn't have it to begin with."

I don't know if you are directly involved in the game in question, but unless you are the player in question I don't think you can tell if he's "lost sight". Each of us plays D&D for different reasons, and there is no "correct" path in the game. The only important question is this: Does the +1 BAB imbalance the game? Personally I think that at 1st level it might be. At 21st level not at all. There's so many ways to counter +1 BAB at 21st level it's mind boggling.

Last, you said: ", your last attack is at -15 so granting it from wish must be perfectly reasonable, right? Well, if it isn't a big deal because the last attack is so worthless, then why complain about it in the first place? Would you like to know why? Because, you know, I know, we all know, that 20 levels from now, that last attack won't be so worthless."

Well, let's examine that. Say our guy gets his +1 BAB and advances to level 41 (20 levels from now). I don't know the detals of character so I'll make some reasonable assumptions. He probably had a dex of around 22 at 21st level. Assume he increased his dex at every chance (every other epic level I believe). That gives him a bonus of +11. He's probably got a +5 (it might go higher in the ELH, I'm not sure). Let's not forget his "Epic bonus" to hit of +10. Let's see, that's +1 BAB (the gimme), +11 dex, +10 Epic bonus, and +5 weapon. Let's give him a +20 "circumstance" bonus to cover whatever else might be going on. That's a final attack bonus of +47 to attack, assuming my public school math holds up. Alright, that's alot. Let's see what that can do. Looking through the ELH I found a monster comparably even to a 41st level party: the Mature Adult Prismatic Dragon with a CR of 43. A few higher but close enough. It has an AC of 71! That means our massive attack of +47 still needs a roll of 20 to even have a chance! (Assuming of course that you play natural 20 always hits. If you don't then you still missed, having only an attack of 67...) Spending 5000 XP for a 5% chance to thwack something isn't unbalancing in my book.

Of course all this changes if you aren't fighting monsters of comparable CR. If all you are doing is hunting down peasants, owlbears and kobalds at 21st (or 41st) level then I think the campagain has more issues than just a +1 BAB.

Put simply, when fighting a monster of comparable CR, you should have around a 50% chance to hit with stats and weapons and other bonues figured in. When you subtract 15 from that roll, almost every time your chance to hit drops to 5 or 10%. Personally, I wouldn't spend 5000 XP for a 5% chance to hit, not if I was level 10, 21 or 51. Let's face it, this player isn't looking for some extreme advantage and the math bears that out. It seems like he has a vision of his guy and he's trying to achieve it.
 

kreynolds

First Post
rushlight said:
perhaps that's the way he envisions his character. Maybe he thinks his character is some sort of Legolas type guy, and that's what he was looking for.

If that were the case, he should have stuck with fighter/ranger/tempest, but he didn't. It's like crying and whining over the fact that you just bought a chocolate icecream cone, when what you really wanted was vanilla, but you forgot.

rushlight said:
Or perhaps he just likes rolling the dice.

He can roll the dice all he wants. I still wouldn't give him the increase to his BAB. That's what leveling is for.

rushlight said:
More likely he had planned on getting his 4th attack on his 21st level and just found out that it wasn't possible by the ELH rules, and was looking for another way to get it. Any way it goes, it isn't all that big of a deal.

You're absolutely right. One extra attack isn't a big deal, so why bother throwing a fit about it?

rushlight said:
I think that the 4th attack IS trivial.

The only people I know that argue this much over something so trivial are those on medication and wear funny little jackets most of the time.

rushlight said:
In fact, from my experience (and I've been playing 3e since it came out) the last attack (when you get several attacks) hits about 10% of the time, regardless of level.

This only further proves my point. Why make such a big deal out of something that is apparently "trivial"?

rushlight said:
I don't know if you are directly involved in the game in question

No.

rushlight said:
but unless you are the player in question I don't think you can tell if he's "lost sight".

It's a theory. I didn't say I knew him.

rushlight said:
Each of us plays D&D for different reasons, and there is no "correct" path in the game.

Exactly. Maybe he should find a group that wouldn't mind.

rushlight said:
The only important question is this: Does the +1 BAB imbalance the game? Personally I think that at 1st level it might be. At 21st level not at all. There's so many ways to counter +1 BAB at 21st level it's mind boggling.

I'm sure that would change the first time a spellcaster popped you with 4 more swings than usuall because his BAB was increased and he has two speed weapons.

rushlight said:
Well, let's examine that. Say our guy gets his +1 BAB and advances to level 41 (20 levels from now). I don't know the detals of character so I'll make some reasonable assumptions. He probably had a dex of around 22 at 21st level. Assume he increased his dex at every chance (every other epic level I believe). That gives him a bonus of +11. He's probably got a +5 (it might go higher in the ELH, I'm not sure). Let's not forget his "Epic bonus" to hit of +10. Let's see, that's +1 BAB (the gimme), +11 dex, +10 Epic bonus, and +5 weapon. Let's give him a +20 "circumstance" bonus to cover whatever else might be going on. That's a final attack bonus of +47 to attack, assuming my public school math holds up. Alright, that's alot. Let's see what that can do. Looking through the ELH I found a monster comparably even to a 41st level party: the Mature Adult Prismatic Dragon with a CR of 43. A few higher but close enough. It has an AC of 71! That means our massive attack of +47 still needs a roll of 20 to even have a chance! (Assuming of course that you play natural 20 always hits. If you don't then you still missed, having only an attack of 67...) Spending 5000 XP for a 5% chance to thwack something isn't unbalancing in my book.

1) Spending XP for a crappy attack is not the point. Have you ever noticed that you don't spend xp to gain a level? When you spend XP, you get something in return for delaying your next level up, which ironically, comes with many things, and one of which is, you guessed it, and increase in your BAB.

2) Once again, if it's such a trivial attack, why throw a fit?

rushlight said:
Of course all this changes if you aren't fighting monsters of comparable CR. If all you are doing is hunting down peasants, owlbears and kobalds at 21st (or 41st) level then I think the campagain has more issues than just a +1 BAB.

Or if you're defending a stronghold from a thousand orcs (no pun intended).

rushlight said:
Put simply, when fighting a monster of comparable CR, you should have around a 50% chance to hit with stats and weapons and other bonues figured in. When you subtract 15 from that roll, almost every time your chance to hit drops to 5 or 10%. Personally, I wouldn't spend 5000 XP for a 5% chance to hit, not if I was level 10, 21 or 51.

There's that "trivial attack" thing again.

rushlight said:
Let's face it, this player isn't looking for some extreme advantage and the math bears that out.

I don't know what he's looking for that's so important that he feels it necessary to alter the core rules of the class and leveling system.

rushlight said:
It seems like he has a vision of his guy and he's trying to achieve it.

Apparently a few classes too late.
 

Arravis

First Post
All I have to say is thank god for Rule 0. D&D=game. I play games for fun and for my friends to have fun. Not only that, it's not Warhammer or chess where every move needs to be carefully strategized. A character career doesn't need to be a tight shute that you must follow at all costs or you can't achieve your personal goals and visions. It was a simple question and a simple goal that he asked and he wanted to see if there was a reasonable and balanced way to achieve those goals.

Why you felt it was necessary to treat this person with contempt, I have no clue. Anyway, I don't see that person "crying and whining". I try to treat all the fellows on here with respect and I assume that they are all fairly intelligent people.

And I agree with several of the posters here. The chracter was created without knowledge of the effects of the ELH and the player need not be able to achieve his goals for it. I'm not saying those goals should be easily achieved, but they should be reasonably achiavable. The whole "you should have thought about your epic levels 15 levels ago" seems overly harsh.
 
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kreynolds

First Post
Arravis said:
D&D=game. I play games for fun and for my friends to have fun.

I agree.

Arravis said:
Why you felt it was necessary to treat this person with contempt, I have no clue.

Not contempt. Possible disappointment. I don't know the guy. Like I already stated, this is just a theory.

Arravis said:
Anyway, I don't see that person "crying and whining". I try to treat all the fellows on here with respect and I assume that they are all fairly intelligent people.

And I agree with several of the posters here. The chracter was created without knowledge of the effects of the ELH and the player need not be able to achieve his goals for it. I'm not saying those goals should be easily achieved, but they should be reasonably achiavable.

Of course, there are always exceptions.

Really, it all boils down to this. Someone asked could you do it, the answer is no, and now the thread has degraded into "But that's not fair! I didn't know!". Before, it was just a question about the rules, now it's about throwing a temper tantrum.

Arravis said:
The whole "you should have thought about your epic levels 15 levels ago" seems overly harsh.

I don't think it's harsh. Now, planning really far ahead and screwing the pooch, finding out that you messed up the math and you can't achieve what you want, that's harsh. Believe me. I know. I messed up a two-weapon fighter I had one time, just by taking 1 level of rogue too many. I really dig the character though, so I'll just suck it up and keep playing him. You see, the sheet isn't the heart of my character.

*sniff* I almost made myself cry. *sniff* ;)
 
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Arravis

First Post
Just different styles I suppose. As a DM I'm much more interested in entertaining my players then anything else. This doesn't mean I'm a push over or "weak", there are some things I don't bend on, but something like this seems fairly trivial and since it's important to the "vision" of the character of the player, I'd allow it in some form or other after some work.
 

kreynolds

First Post
Arravis said:
Just different styles I suppose.

Probably.

Arravis said:
As a DM I'm much more interested in entertaining my players then anything else.

Same here, except when something makes my job too difficult, thus taking away any fun I have, or when something is just downright rediculous. The latter doesn't happen often at all.

Arravis said:
This doesn't mean I'm a push over or "weak", there are some things I don't bend on, but something like this seems fairly trivial and since it's important to the "vision" of the character of the player, I'd allow it in some form or other after some work.

See previous answer. (Incidentally, you don't sound like a pushover :) )
 
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Ridley's Cohort

First Post
Xeriar said:
I think for those who aren't just continuing the progression, using the best combo of 20 levels for saves and attacks.

Best for each stat? Or pick 20 and then make all the calculations?

Maybe I am just blowing a horn for a lost cause, but I think this method gives tremendous advantages to extreme multiclassing. I guess I wish a little more character focus were encouraged. <sigh>

If I were DM I would probably give the guy a break because the rules are new, but I am having a little trouble sympathizing for someone who had his heart set on a 4th attack but could see to picking up 11 "fighter" levels out of the first 20.
 

fuindordm

First Post
Blanket house rule it!

I dont' know if this will solve the problem, because I dont' know this character's class levels. But on the House Rules forum people were talking about the following rule for multiclassers:

BAB = (good class levels)*1 + (avg. class levels)*0.75 + (bad class levels)*0.5

Saves = (good class levels)/2 + (bad class levels)/3, +2 if at least one of the character's classes has a good progression.

Round down in both cases.
This tends to boost BAB's slightly and avoid some of the obscenely high saves that you can get from stacking multiple classes. For example,

Jane is a Wiz5/Ranger3/Cleric2/Arcane Archer10.

Core rules: BAB = 2+3+1+10 = 16
House rule: BAB = 2.5+3+1.5+10 = 17
Core saves: Fort = 1+3+3+7 = +14
Refl = 1+1+0+7 = +9
Will = 4+1+3+3 = +11
House saves: Fort = 1.67 + 1.5 + 1 + 5 + 2 = +11
Refl = 1.67 + 1 + .67 + 5 + 2 = +10
Will = 2.5 + 1 + 1 + 3.33 + 2 = +9

The principle effect is to lower multiclasser saving throws and avoid screwing people who take more than one class with +0 BAB at level one. It may not make a difference for your player, however, and some would say that the high saves of multiclasses is a valuable advantage that at least offsets their lack of cosmic power.

Otherwise, I would certainly allow a wish to raise BAB by 1, up to a limit of +5 (parallel to the limit of +5 intrinsic bonus to ability scores) and under no circumstances allowing more than 4 attacks per round.

--Ben
 

rushlight

First Post
"Really, it all boils down to this. Someone asked could you do it, the answer is no..."

That's where you are flat wrong. It is their game, and they can give him a BAB of +306 if they wanted to. The original point of the question as I read is was asking if there was a method already built-in that would allow this. There is, it is the spell Wish. Wish allows anything the GM wants it to. The GM needs to weigh the effects of +1 BAB for a 21st level character versus the cost of casting Wish and the implications to his game. If he finds that +1 BAB will not imbalance his game he can allow it. If he finds that +1 BAB will cause problems, then he can say no. That's all that really needs to be addressed here. So far I can't see any valid arguments for +1 BAB causing imbalance at 21st level, but of course I'm not involved in the game so I don't know any details. Just a glance at average "game conditions" though I wouldn't say that +1 BAB is unbalancing, and that's what the previous example I posted shows.

"2) Once again, if it's such a trivial attack, why throw a fit?"

Well, no one is really throwing a fit. You seem to be focusing on WHY he wants +1 BAB, while the question is something different. Why he wants it is irrelevant. The questions are: 1) Can he do it and 2) If he can, does that hurt the game?

Well, my answers are:

1) Yes he can, since Wish allows for ANYTHING (although asking for too much can be dangerous, just like it says in the spell description).

2) I don't think it makes much difference at all when you are a 21st level party. The monsters you are fighting will have a high enough AC or other magical abilities to offset any benefit gained.

Don't worry about why he wants to do it, it doesn't matter. I've even said that I wouldn't do it, but if he wants too then go for it. For the GM in question he needs to take all the information available and decide if it unbalances HIS game. If he feels that it doesn't, the Wish spell allows a legal in-game method to achieve the goal, as opposed to doing out-of-game alterations.

Unless you can show that my copy of Wish is wrong or that there's a serious unbalancing effect caused by having a 5% chance (or less) of hitting a creature then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
 

LordAO

First Post
Actually, what your post does sound like is that you min/maxed and are now upset that you didn't have enough foresight to know that BABs were not going to work the same. And now your buddy is laughing at you because he has a slight edge.

Excuse me for offering my opnion, I wouldn't have if I knew I would be insulted personally. Nobody said you have to agree with me. I don't care if you do. But there's no need to attack people personally. And for your info, I'm the DM and don't even have a character, so the last thing I'm worried about is not doing it right. I know the system well enough to min/max as well as the best, but I don't because that's not what is important to me. I'm concerned about the way I heard the epic level rules work because I think it encourages that kind of thinking, not because I think that way. I don't have any problem letting people adjust their characters to get the benefit of the doubt. In fact, I plan to help my players do just that if and when they reach epic levels.
 
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Crothian

First Post
It is his game, and he is free to do what he likes. However, he choose to ask for other people's opinions. Unless you use rule zero, BAB can not be increased. However, if rule zero is assumed to always be used it makes this forum useless.
 

kreynolds

First Post
rushlight said:
That's where you are flat wrong. <snip>

An opinion was asked for. I gave it. It isn't wrong. According to me, the answer is no. According to the rules, the answer is no. If anyone doesn't like that answer, fine, but if anyone is just gonna piss and moan because you didn't get the answer you wanted to hear, don't bother posting again.

I never said his DM couldn't do it. What his DM does is none of my business, and I could care less.
 
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Mr.Binx

First Post
How does someone incorporate a BAB into a wish anyhoo? That really doesn't sound very RP-oriented. Anyone able to word it well in my game would get the benefits of a Tenser's Transformation spell for a good couple of rounds (which just happens to be in the realm of listed power for a wish spell). If they ask for the benefits to be permanent, then put them in stasis immediately afterwards. Give people what they ask for, neh?
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
kreynolds said:


You can't spend so much XP creating a magic item that you would lose a level. If you don't have enough XP to spend without losing a level, you can't make the item.

Well, that was only part of my thesis, which is cast enough wishes that you lose a level. I can't offhand find out whether you are allowed to lose a level from a wish, so you might want to cast just enough wishes so that your xp is near enough to the threshold and then kill your familiar, since that WILL cause you to lose the level.

Then earn the level back the long way.

Cheers
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
kreynolds said:


An opinion was asked for. I gave it. It isn't wrong. According to me, the answer is no.

A very fair statement

According to the rules, the answer is no.

Not a fair statement though. It is only according to your interpretation of the rules.

The forums are a great place to chew ideas over with people, and get alternative views on how to handle an issue. Sometimes other people have an insight into the application of a rule which is useful, at other times not. In many (most?) cases it is about individuals explaining their interpretation of a rule.

After all, the books don't say "check with the ENWorld forums" do they? Just "Check with your dungeon master" :)

Cheers
 

I have to disagree completely. As a rule PrC classes are more powerful that base classes. You went for that power sooner by grabbing it at Wizard 10. As Yoda would say you took the quick easy path. Sure it got you into your PrC class two levels sooner but the long term effect is the loss of a few points of BAB and save.

That my friend is balancing factors.


LordAO said:
I think it's stupid the way they did attack bonuses and saves in the ELH, because now everyone is worrying about having this combination of levels in that order, unfairly screwing people who make the "mistake" of getting this class at this level instead of that one. All it does is give power players another wepon in their arsenal and leads them further down the road to min/maxing obsession. In the mean time, those who actually care about their character and things like roleplaying get screwed by the rules into having a suckier character. Why should my attack bonus and all of my saves be one point lower (an yes that does matter) because im a Wiz 12/ War Wizard5/ Archmage 5 and i got the extra 2 levels of Wiz after 20th level. If i had got 12th lev wizard before lev 20 and only lev 4 in the other classes my attack and saves would all be 1 pt higher. Its the exact same combination of levels and the exact same character. Why should i be punished because of the order i got those classes?! So if somebody wants to give their characters the benefit of the doubt, I say get over it.
 


LordAO

First Post
How is getting a prestige class "the easy path". So sorry I don't follow your dignified way to character developement. I'd have to work just as hard to develop that character as any other. As a general rule, yes, prestige classes are a little more focused and specialized than normal classes, and thus, more powerful. But there are also a whole lot of requirements, disadvantages, etc that make up for it. Getting prestige classes is anything but the "quick and easy" way to develop a character. Besides, that isn't even relevant. Those classes don't even have to be prestige. Even most combinations of any classes will get screwed by the epic rules, such as the Sorcerer 20/Fighter 20 having a higher base attack than a Fighter 20/Sorcerer 20.
 
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