D&D 5E We need more Int/Str/Cha saving throws

[Zireael]

Stormonu's list is nice, but in practice it might lead to severe MAD or characters who are completely average across the board.

I'd prefer 4e's method.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

I'd go for

Str - spells that seek to physically restrain the target (breaking/escaping a resilient sphere, evard's black tentacles, web, perhaps certain wall spells)
Dex - spells that can be avoided via quick reaction (AoE such as fireball and lightning bolt)
Con - spells that attack the body (Disintegrate, Cause Disease, Polymorph)
Wis - spells overcome by keeping a cool head or "grip on reality" - fear, insanity (this would make clerics good vs. fear, falling back on their faith in a deity)
Int - illusions
Cha - charms and domination

Good list. The only one I'd question is illusions, which I'd make wis or int (defender's choice).

It's also worth noting that str, dex and wis get targeted by maneuvers, combat contents like disarm, and skill tricks, which at least ups the amount of str and wis saves out there.

 

[YRUSirius]

Why is MAD a problem for 5E?

-YRUSirius

 

[B.T.]

Saving throws needed: Ref, Will, and Fort.

 

[Li Shenron]

Looking at Chris_Nightwing excellent list, I can imagine some of these spells might have their ST changed:

Cause Fear - Wis - You frighten them

I am still not sure about Fear spells... in one way a "powerful personality" (Cha) seems just what you need to avoid being frightened, but in another way perception (Wis) might help understanding that the threat is not real.

Chain Lightning - Dex - They avoid magical lightning

This is quite a stretch, but some lightning spells might be redefined as unavoidable by dodging (a little more realistic) so that Dex is replaced by Con ST.

Command - Wis - You control them

This definitely sounds like a compulsion (forcing actions to the victim) rather than a charm (tricking the victim's perception) so why not Cha ST just like Dominate?

Disintegrate - Dex - They avoid your death ray

Well this is Dex because it used to be a ray but in 5e rays are just going to be spells requiring a magical attack. The victim already benefits from Dex to AC (unless armor bla bla...) so why another Dex ST? Why not CON?

Hold - Wis - You paralyse them

This could have definitely been a Str ST to break free, but I understand that the "mind-controlling" nature of this spell is very traditional and so I'd keep it. However, it could still switch to a Cha ST.

Irresistable Dance - Wis - You make them dance, dance magic dance

Another candidate for Cha, IMHO of course.

Phantasmal Force - Wis - They see through your illusion

As already suggested, Int could very well become the default ST against Illusions.

Polymorph - Wis - They resist transformation

In 3e the main ST was Fortitude, and the Wis ST was for disorientation... I wonder how it got changed this time. I think Con is more appropriate than Wis for the transformation itself, but also Str might work, although it's quite a stretch.

Sanctuary - Wis - You make them think twice about attacking

Could have been Cha. I guess there is now some ambiguity when it comes to willpower.

Thunderwave - Dex - They avoid forceful thunder

Well this is just wrong... can you dodge a thunder? "Forceful" clearly suggests a Str ST here!

Web - Dex - They avoid your webs

Dex and Str need to be featured here to break free, but honestly if Str is going to be allowed only as a check rather than a ST it doesn't really matter.

These changes may shift the balance from 0-16-12-0-13-5 to 3-13-14-1-8-10, not much of a change, but if many Illusions change to Int ST then the balance will be quite a lot improved. Then spells such as Bigby's xyz-ing hand would definitely have a Str ST.

 

[Sadrik]

I'd go for

Str - spells that seek to physically restrain the target (breaking/escaping a resilient sphere, evard's black tentacles, web, perhaps certain wall spells)
Dex - spells that can be avoided via quick reaction (AoE such as fireball and lightning bolt)
Con - spells that attack the body (Disintegrate, Cause Disease, Polymorph)
Wis - spells overcome by keeping a cool head or "grip on reality" - fear, insanity (this would make clerics good vs. fear, falling back on their faith in a deity)
Int - illusions
Cha - charms and domination

I would only make one change to this listing. Since wisdom is perception. I would move all of the willpower save to charisma and not just pieces of it. Barring the illusions of course. Then I would institute a more perception based save. This would be your passive perception check like in 4e. The reason I would do it this way is it becomes extremely easy to delineate where the saves fall.

That said I can see another option, but it modifies some core ideas that have been in the game for two editions. Make intelligence perception, with illusions as the I notice a difference. Then make wisdom willpower, then make charisma similar to the difference above between strength and constitution. So strength is the actively resist physical things and con is the passively resist things save. Same here, wisdom is the passively resist mental effects and charisma is the actively resist things.

One other note about saves, skills should go against saves more rather than contested rolls. For instance diplomacy should go against a save and not just an opposed cha/diplomacy roll. It is important to make these true defenses against all effects rather than just spells. Point here is the applications for saves should be spread more than they have been in the past editions.

 

[triqui]

Stormonu's list is nice, but in practice it might lead to severe MAD or characters who are completely average across the board.

I'd prefer 4e's method.

Severe MAD should be a goal for the game, IMHO. The problem with MAD characters is that SAD characters are so much better. And that's wrong. Every ability should be important to every class in some way. If you want to have a low stat, you should have some consequences.

It's dumb that in 3e/4e, a 20th lvl fighter with STR 18 DEX 18 CON 18 INT 18 WIS 18 CHA 18 is underpowered.

 

[triqui]

That said I can see another option, but it modifies some core ideas that have been in the game for two editions. Make intelligence perception, with illusions as the I notice a difference. Then make wisdom willpower, then make charisma similar to the difference above between strength and constitution. So strength is the actively resist physical things and con is the passively resist things save. Same here, wisdom is the passively resist mental effects and charisma is the actively resist things.

Intelligence can't be perception, because animals wouldn't be able to spot or listen.

 

[Scars Unseen]

I'm kind of late to the party, but my recommendation would be to split attributes into proactive and reactive use. Dexterity, Constitution and Wisdom would be reactive attributes, and therefore used for saving throws. Strength, Intelligence and Charisma would be proactive attributes, and would be used when you want to accomplish something. Now, having made this division, I would do something a touch controversial, and do away with d20 era saving throws altogether, and instead use TSR era attribute checks.

The whole unified model was a great experiment and all, but I think that it had some rather unfortunate side effects. One of those is that it made attributes simultaneously too important(by creating a standard linear scale for attribute bonuses) and not relevant enough(by eliminating the importance of the attribute score itself in gameplay). I'll spare you my rant about attribute bonuses since that's not particularly important for this discussion, but I think that the second part touches on this topic enough to be worth mentioning. Here's how I see it:

Currently, baseline saves are made by adding your attribute bonus to a d20(and then trying to get over a DC). This means that the most nimble elf in the world(assuming 20 max attribute) has a 25% greater chance to dodge a... whatever... than the average human peasant. That isn't much of a difference, and yet the bounded accuracy mantra dictates that we not put a constantly increasing bonus on top of those saves in order to keep numbers from expanding pointlessly. So how to fix that? Make a dexterity check. Instead of the DC being the static point modified by the attribute, make the attribute your standard, and have the DC be a modfier. Roll d20 and try to hit your attribute score or lower, modified by the DC. Now that elf has a 50% greater chance than the mud farmer, making his high dexterity matter more, but bounded accuracy is preserved overall.

So make dexterity constitution and wisdom checks when something needs a reaction from the character. On the other hand, when there is a situation that needs to be acted upon, go with your active attributes: strength, intelligence and charisma. Stuck in a web? Strength check. Need to talk your way past a guard? Charisma check. Need to tie a rope? Why are you making a check to see if your character tie a rope?!? Okay, fine. Intelligence check to see if you recall the best knot for the occasion. I hope you're happy.

Obviously there are a couple of grey areas, mostly when it comes to dexterity, which could be seen as an active attribute as well as a reactive one. Some corner cases could be made for most of the attributes being used one way instead of the other, but for the most part, I think that the way I outlined above would help to ensure that all attributes have importance(even if they will never have equal importance in any given playing style) and reward exceptional attributes without breaking bounded accuracy.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Intelligence can't be perception, because animals wouldn't be able to spot or listen.

This is the biggest problem with trying to run creatures with the same rules as PCs. It doesn't matter that animals are not very intelligent. We have reason. They have instinct. Both work. Problem solved.