Weapon Finesse and Grappling

[Kemrain]

To initiate a grapple, you make a Melee Touch Attack, provoking an attack of opportunity, and then, if you succede, make an opposed Grapple Check, as a free action, to actually start grappling.

My question is, can Weapon Finesse be applied to either the Melee Touch Attack or Grapple Checks?

If not, would it break game balance to allow it?

- Kemrain the Finessable.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I'd rule that, at least, it applies to the Touch Attack to establish a hold.

I don't believe it should apply to the Grapple Checks.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'd rule that, at least, it applies to the Touch Attack to establish a hold.

Yeah... it's not explicit in the rules (natural weapons are always considered light, and unarmed strikes are considered light, but initiating a grapple isn't actually performed with a natural weapon or an unarmed strike), but given the precedents, it doesn't seem unreasonable to extend the same light weapon consideration to initiating a grapple.

And to the unarmed melee touch attack to begin a Trip attempt, too.

-Hyp.

 

[T-Bone JiuJitsu]

"can Weapon Finesse be applied to either the Melee Touch Attack or Grapple Checks?

If not, would it break game balance to allow it?"


I allowed a PC monk in my current campaign to add his Dex modifier to his grapple check with Weapon Finesse. BIG mistake.

Yes it will disrupt game balance. (IMO)

Here's why. Now, all this monk does is find ways to pump his Dex. It helps his AC, his melee attacks, his grapple touch attack, and adds on top of his Imporved Grapple check. He started his career with an 18 Dex. Dropped another point on Dex at 4th. (will most certainly do it again at 8th)., Gets potions or spells of Cats Grace cast on him at every opportunity, Had the mage craft him gloves of Dexterity, etc.

His grapple check is now nearly unbeatable by most foes close to his level, and he's nearly impossible to hit in combat. This had disrupted the game in many ways... but primarily by him grappling with impunity the biggest of the big bad guys in every fight and completely nullifying them. This is partially a problem with the grapple rules as well, but finessing a grapple check is insult on top of injury. Not to mention it is bending the rules.

 

[Saeviomagy]

His grapple check is now nearly unbeatable by most foes close to his level, and he's nearly impossible to hit in combat.

Unless, of course, he's grappling, in which case his dex mod does not apply against anyone who he's not grappling. The guy is killing himself here.

This had disrupted the game in many ways... but primarily by him grappling with impunity the biggest of the big bad guys in every fight and completely nullifying them.

Unless of course the rest of the bad guys just kill him because he's no longer unhittable. And sneak attack him too if they're rogues. Owwie. Unless the BBEG was already isolated from his allies (in which case he's dead anyway), then this tactic is very, very dangerous to the user.

 

[Scion]

Just in case, gloves of dex dont stack with potions of cats grace.

Also, how would this be any different if he had pumped str instead? His ac would likely be a bit lower, but he would be hitting 'way' harder. I dont see how he is beating everyone left and right.

If his ac is unbeatable, and his grapple is unbeatable, I'd have to say something else is going on

 

[Armadon63]

why not hook the super bad guy up with some super spiked armor. Oh man but like dont have the spikes showing and then when he grapples him they pop out. that would be cool. and put poison on them and maybe some acid.

 

[Li Shenron]

I allowed a PC monk in my current campaign to add his Dex modifier to his grapple check with Weapon Finesse. BIG mistake.

Yes it will disrupt game balance. (IMO)

Here's why. Now, all this monk does is find ways to pump his Dex. It helps his AC, his melee attacks, his grapple touch attack, and adds on top of his Imporved Grapple check. He started his career with an 18 Dex. Dropped another point on Dex at 4th. (will most certainly do it again at 8th)., Gets potions or spells of Cats Grace cast on him at every opportunity, Had the mage craft him gloves of Dexterity, etc.

His grapple check is now nearly unbeatable by most foes close to his level, and he's nearly impossible to hit in combat. This had disrupted the game in many ways... but primarily by him grappling with impunity the biggest of the big bad guys in every fight and completely nullifying them. This is partially a problem with the grapple rules as well, but finessing a grapple check is insult on top of injury. Not to mention it is bending the rules.

Allowing WF to all grapple check seems in fact quite going to far... and not very realistic since grapple checks are also used to damage during grapple - which I think means you're crushing the other. I think WF should indeed apply to the touch unarmed attack to start the grapple but not to grapple checks (which are not done with a "melee weapon" technically).

 

[Kemrain]

Allowing WF to all grapple check seems in fact quite going to far... and not very realistic since grapple checks are also used to damage during grapple - which I think means you're crushing the other. I think WF should indeed apply to the touch unarmed attack to start the grapple but not to grapple checks (which are not done with a "melee weapon" technically).

Knowing some people who are trained grapplers and ground fighters, and had many of their techniques described to/used on me, I must disagree that using Dex in a Grapple Check is unrealistic.
If I recall, most grapplers are doing subdual damage, unless they take a -4 penalty to their grapple checks. Joint locks and pressure points can be a non-strength way of getting that damage in, and require precise movements more than brute strength (though locking a joint can certanly be done with strength alone). That's more about getting your opponent's body to bend in ways it wasn't designed to, and it's fairly Dex-ey, from what I've seen/been told.
Back to the Mechanics, I do see how this can devaluate Strength even more, and make Dexterity an Uberstat, but, losing your Dex bonus in a grapple is a step in the right direction, there. (Would Uncanny dodge negate that loss of Dex?) I think that using Dex rather than Str in a grapple is a good way to get someone pinned, but a poor way to deal them damage, an in a campaign where armor gives DR, and losing your Dex bonus makes you lose your Class bonus, like mine, I'm still not convinced that it's unbalanced at the cost of Weapon Finesse.

For a normal game, it may be too much, but I still think that hitting more often for less damage isn't always better or unbalancing.

- Kemrain the Punching Bag.

 

[Armadon63]

Some of you might want to look into a dude named hoyce gracy(sp), former UFC champ. His style was pure grapling. he was undeafeted in the first 3 UFC's. He wasnt strong at all but he could make you cry from bending your arms in the wrong places. He beat dudes twice his size with his quickness. he is a grappler and thats what i think of when i hear of grappling in DnD. Heavy weight greko roman wrestlers are not the only grapplers out there.