Weapon Finesse and Grappling

[Kemrain]

Some of you might want to look into a dude named hoyce gracy(sp), former UFC champ. His style was pure grapling. he was undeafeted in the first 3 UFC's. He wasnt strong at all but he could make you cry from bending your arms in the wrong places. He beat dudes twice his size with his quickness. he is a grappler and thats what i think of when i hear of grappling in DnD. Heavy weight greko roman wrestlers are not the only grapplers out there.

See? I'm not on crack. Yaay!

He probably spent a feat on that. It'd be worth a feat, I s'pose. Would spending a feat specifically on this be worth it, balance wise?

- Kemrain the (un)Balanced

 

[RandomUsernamehmimo71]

See? I'm not on crack. Yaay!

He probably spent a feat on that. It'd be worth a feat, I s'pose. Would spending a feat specifically on this be worth it, balance wise?

- Kemrain the (un)Balanced

With a feat that required Weapon Finesse, and Imp. Unarmed strike.. Maybe even Imp. Grapple, I could see it..
I mean, even if they have a +4 from dex, if they had an 18 strength, they'd be getting the same extra to hit, and more damage in the grapple, to boot!

 

[sfedi]

but, losing your Dex bonus in a grapple is a step in the right direction, there. (Would Uncanny dodge negate that loss of Dex?)

No. Uncanny Dodge won´t help him.

 

[Kemrain]

No. Uncanny Dodge won´t help him.

Can anyone quote me a rule here?

- Kemrain the Uncanny.

 

[sfedi]

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.
If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

Since the source of his loss of Dex comes from a physical impediment, Uncanny Dodge doesn't apply.

Strictly speaking, there's a hole in the RAW, so you can challenge what I've just said.

You'll find plenty of threads on that particular topic/debate.

 

[T-Bone JiuJitsu]

As I've stated many times... (to my players)

Royce Gracie Vs. Dan Severn = Royce being much higher level than Dan and thus getting his BaB from high levels added to his grapple check. Dan Had Strength and some experiance on his side, but not at the Gracie level. They'd both undoubtably have Improved Grapple.

 

[Li Shenron]

Knowing some people who are trained grapplers and ground fighters, and had many of their techniques described to/used on me, I must disagree that using Dex in a Grapple Check is unrealistic.

That Dex may help grappling is possible, but even without knowing any trained grappler myself I am pretty sure Str is still the primary ability. If one is strong and dexterous he's probably a better grappler than one who's just strong, but if you're just dextrous I don't think you stand a chance in a real grapple, the only thing you can do well is escape it. Weapon Finesse doesn't add Dex into the fray, it replaces Str with Dex; applying it to all grapple checks means that a high-dex low-str character can be better than a strong one in starting the grapple, maintaining hold, crushing, pinning... I doubt that a real grappler can do that if he's not also strong.

 

[Kemrain]

Weapon Finesse doesn't add Dex into the fray, it replaces Str with Dex; applying it to all grapple checks means that a high-dex low-str character can be better than a strong one in starting the grapple, maintaining hold, crushing, pinning... I doubt that a real grappler can do that if he's not also strong.

Important to note. 2 Grapplers, one 18 Str, the other 18 Dex with a feat that allows Dex instead of Str in grapple checks. In the grappling department, they're equals, +4 from stat to the touch attack, to initiate a grapple, to deal damage, to pin... The only place they're not equal is in the Damage department, where the Strength grappler shines. Oh, and the fact that the Dex Grappler spent feats on his ability to use Dex to grapple, where the Str grappler could spend them on otehrs thigns, like Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization: Grappling. In this light, allowing a feat to do it is letting the Dex guy catch up with feats, while still being left behind in the Damage department.

Looking at this, I'm not sure I see a problem.

- Kemrain the Weak.

 

[T-Bone JiuJitsu]

The only real "problem" is that it makes Dex a "super-stat" for the grappler. Sure, it can do all the things a high strength can do (minus the damage), but it's utility in other situations outshines strength. AC, Reflex saves, Tumbling, avoiding touch attacks, initiative, ranged attacks, a large number of skills, etc.

Maybe the solution is a feat that makes my highest stat apply to my Grapple checks. Wise Grapples, Genius Grappler, Endurance Grappler, Charismatic Grappler.

My thoughts: Grappling rules are broken. Suggested fixes: Escaping a Grapple should be a move equiv. action. Improved Grappling should only give a +2 bonus to Grapple checks. Attacking someone with a light weapon who is grappling you should not be at -4. None of that playtested though.