Weapon Finesse

[Alzrius]

Just looks like a standard not-supported-by-anything-in-the-Core-Rules Custserv response from here

The response works just fine with the rules, as the off-hand attack isn't due to a light weapon, and thus saying "you don't get the benefits of a double weapon being an off-hand light weapon" seems totally reasonable.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The response works just fine with the rules, as the off-hand attack isn't due to a light weapon, and thus saying "you don't get the benefits of a double weapon being an off-hand light weapon" seems totally reasonable.

"If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)"

There is no 'penalty for fighting with a light weapon in your off hand'.

There is a penalty for fighting with a weapon in your off-hand, and a benefit - a reduction in the aforementioned penalty - if the weapon is light.

Darrin says you get all of the penalties (-4 with the TWF feat, -10 without) and none of the benefits (reduction of 2 in the penalty) for using a light weapon.

-Hyp.

 

[Alzrius]

"If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)"

There is no 'penalty for fighting with a light weapon in your off hand'.

There is a penalty for fighting with a weapon in your off-hand, and a benefit - a reduction in the aforementioned penalty - if the weapon is light.

Darrin says you get all of the penalties (-4 with the TWF feat, -10 without) and none of the benefits (reduction of 2 in the penalty) for using a light weapon.

That isn't a benefit, that they reduce the penalty. It's just that the normal penalty for light weapons is 2 less. That's simply the size of their penalty, not a specific bonus.

Anyway, don't read into the letter of the answer to avoid the spirit.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That isn't a benefit, that they reduce the penalty. It's just that the normal penalty for light weapons is 2 less. That's simply the size of their penalty, not a specific bonus.

There is a penalty for wielding a weapon in your off hand. If the weapon you wield is light, that penalty is reduced.

As you said yourself, "You get an extra attack for having any weapon in your off-hand, no matter what kind it is; that isn't a light weapon-specific thing".

The penalty is not light-weapon specific. But there is a benefit to wielding a light weapon; the penalty for having any weapon in your off-hand is reduced.

Anyway, don't read into the letter of the answer to avoid the spirit.

The letter of the answer ignores the text of Power Attack, and the previous answer in the FAQ...

-Hyp.

 

[Alzrius]

The penalty is not light-weapon specific. But there is a benefit to wielding a light weapon; the penalty for having any weapon in your off-hand is reduced.

You're arguing semantics, which are rapidly becoming meaningless. The answer was given, and it doesn't need to be in legalese. You know full well that saying that it doesn't get the benefits of being a light weapon obviously doesn't mean that it doesn't have those reduced penalties (which, anyway, is simply an intrinsic quality, not a benefit).

The letter of the answer ignores the text of Power Attack, and the previous answer in the FAQ...

The FAQ tends to disagree with the rules as they are, so that's no credible source. When the FAQ and customer service disagree, customer service wins, because they're from WotC, and the Sage isn't anymore. Primary source rules apply.

Likewise, all Power Attack says to support your case is "Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon." and that is what the custserv answer said; you treat it as a light weapon, just in terms of the penalties. You don't get the benefits of it, and can't use it with Weapon Finesse.

The bottom line here is that customer service has answered the question, and it's done so in a way that doesn't contradict anything in the books. The Power Attack thing is quite obviously open to interpretation in this regard, as previous posts have shown. We know what the answer is now, and it's "nay" for using WF with a double weapon.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The FAQ tends to disagree with the rules as they are...

Not nearly as often as CustServ does

Primary source rules apply.

Yes, but in this case, the Primary Source is the PHB. Customer Service is not the primary source for Weapon Finesse rules, the PHB is...

Likewise, all Power Attack says to support your case is "Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon."

Right.

... and that is what the custserv answer said; you treat it as a light weapon, just in terms of the penalties.

How are "You treat it as a light weapon" and "You treat it as a light weapon if it's detrimental, but not if it's beneficial, except in the special case of the reducing of a penalty, which somehow counts as a penalty" the same thing?

They're completely different!

-Hyp.

 

[Ranger REG]

Is there a time you would concede, Hyp?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Is there a time you would concede, Hyp?

Oh, probably. It's happened before

But I don't see what's unclear about "Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon."

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

The FAQ tends to disagree with the rules as they are, so that's no credible source. When the FAQ and customer service disagree, customer service wins, because they're from WotC, and the Sage isn't anymore. Primary source rules apply.

Saying that WOTC Customer service is a "Primary Source" pretty much means you concede the arguement.

Customer Service is flat out wrong more than 50% of the time, and if you send the same question in a few times, you will usually get a contradictory answer to it.

Customer Service is worse than useless, and claiming that they are authorative is just.... ew...

(Note: I don't have any ill will towards the Cust Serv representatives themselves. I'm sure they try their best, but they really aren't rules guru's. They don't have any special lines of communication with R&D or the game designers. They just read the books and make their best guess.)

 

[Hypersmurf]

(Note: I don't have any ill will towards the Cust Serv representatives themselves. I'm sure they try their best, but they really aren't rules guru's. They don't have any special lines of communication with R&D or the game designers. They just read the books and make their best guess.)

Heh.

I had an email conversation with a Custserv guy, once. He was the only person on that day.

I asked a question; he gave a dubious answer. I queried on part of the answer, with rules cites; he conceded that part, and followed with a different dubious answer. This cycles repeated several times, and he finally said "I will make you a deal, currently everyone else is out today, I will
check on this first thing in the morning and give you a response,
you may very well be correct (you put up a good argument). And I
would like to make certain with the RPGA judges and the R&D
department. So let me ask them tomorrow and I should be able to get
an answer to you sometime then, Deal?"

A couple of days later, he emailed back to say he'd checked with R&D, and they'd agreed with my first post...

I recall a Custserv staffer once pointing out "We work ten metres from the line developers!" But that doesn't help unless they talk to them when a question gets sticky...

-Hyp.