We're back to AD&D1

[Scribble]

everlasting peanut?

 

[Thasmodious]

First of all, I posted my first message here when I actually saw the books. So I had no preconceptions, nor I participated in endless discussions about rumors. I just say that I was a bit disappointed with what I saw.

Ahh, so you were deliberately misleading in your first post then when you complained that the DMG "only" had 17 pages devoted to noncombat stuff. You failed to mention that the combat encounter chapter was only 16 pages and that the rest of the book is filled with nothing but advice on all aspects of DMing and world fluff like deities and cosmology.

So, just to be clear -

The PHB begins with a 25 page explanation of roleplaying and ends with a chapter on rituals, none of which are for combat application.

The DMG is 220 pages, 16 of which are on combat encounters, the rest (other than 17 pages on noncombat encounters) are on DMing, adventure design, world design, and monster/NPC design.

The DMG says it clearly: "The rules and story elements in the D&D game are built around a set of core assumptions about the world" (it's ancient; monsters are everywhere; magic is natural; civilized races band together). Other options are briefly discussed, but the whole text pushes you in a certain direction.

Gee, you mean the definitive fantasy RPG pushes you in the direction of...fantasy? How dare they!

You can run any type of world your imagination can cook up. If you can't imagine it without someone else spelling it out for you, then its probably not a game world you should attempt.

 

[Joe Sala]

The PHB begins with a 25 page explanation of roleplaying and ends with a chapter on rituals, none of which are for combat application.

False. The first 25 pages are the basic introduction and character creation. There's no discussion about roleplay and storytelling.

The DMG is 220 pages, 16 of which are on combat encounters, the rest (other than 17 pages on noncombat encounters) are on DMing, adventure design, world design, and monster/NPC design.

False. I was not saying that the DMG only talks about combat. I was saying that specific information about non-combat encounters only has 17 pages, compared to the enormous quantity devoted to combat in the three books.

Gee, you mean the definitive fantasy RPG pushes you in the direction of...fantasy? How dare they!

Please read my messages more carefully. I'm saying that D&D only addresses one sub-genre of fantasy, and it should include more, specially if it's "the definitive fantasy RPG". As I said, I want to play Conan, A Game of Thrones, Viriconium, Malazan, Perdido Street Station, The Wheel of Time, The Black Company, Dragonlance, Ravenloft and even Discworld.

 

[Joe Sala]

Anyway, I'm not attacking D&D4. I'm not saying it's a bad game. I don't want to convince you that you shouldn't buy the books.

I'm just telling that I expected more from the game, and the people writing "D&D4 is not D&D" are wrong. That's it.

 

[Thasmodious]

False. The first 25 pages are the basic introduction and character creation. There's no discussion about roleplay and storytelling.

So I'm imagining the sections on roleplaying. Is the table of contents imagining them, too? How about pages 18-24, are they imagining that they themselves are about roleplaying characters? Is the roleplaying section only fooling itself when it begins:

"The DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game is, first and foremost,
a roleplaying game, which means that it’s all
about taking on the role of a character in the game.
Some people take to this playacting naturally and
easily; others find it more of a challenge. This section
is here to help you out, whether you’re comfortable and
familiar with roleplaying or you’re new to the concept."

That tricky roleplaying section, always up to shenanigans.

False. I was not saying that the DMG only talks about combat. I was saying that specific information about non-combat encounters only has 17 pages, compared to the enormous quantity devoted to combat in the three books.

The rules are devoted to task resolution. Again, thats what you need rules for. Much of the task resolution of a D&D game involves combat. That's the game type. If you want to plan Conan as he sits in a dark room and scribes poetry by candlelight, by all means, do so. Just don't demand that the system books include rules to determine the rhyme scheme and meter.

Please read my messages more carefully. I'm saying that D&D only addresses one sub-genre of fantasy, and it should include more, specially if it's "the definitive fantasy RPG". As I said, I want to play Conan, A Game of Thrones, Viriconium, Malazan, Perdido Street Station, The Wheel of Time, The Black Company, Dragonlance, Ravenloft and even Discworld.

No. It addresses fantasy. D&D is about a certain type of fantasy and always has been. The DM has always and is still quite free to tweak these core assumptions to model some other game world. The DMG even has information on this. You can design a gameworld based on any of those worlds without the DMG needing to pat you on the head and give you permission. A core world model is provided to give novice DMs a solid start. It is not required that you use said model to play D&D. The DMG also tells you this.

The DMG would not have the space to give detailed world descriptions for every subgenre of fantasy. That's what published settings are for. At least respect the market.

 

[AllisterH]

False. The first 25 pages are the basic introduction and character creation. There's no discussion about roleplay and storytelling..

Hmm? Perhaps we have a different idea as to what is a discussion about roleplaying.

Character creation doesnt start until page 25 with the 3 options about choosing your stats while beforehand, the PHB asks players to consider questions such as

"How does you character react to X"

With a list of possible traits to answer this and then the PHB asks the player to consider their background and how it affects them currently with questions such as

"What was the worst day of your character's life? What was the happiest?"

What would you consider "discussions about roleplaying"?

False. I was not saying that the DMG only talks about combat. I was saying that specific information about non-combat encounters only has 17 pages, compared to the enormous quantity devoted to combat in the three books.

.

Again, the ritual system and the skill system ENCOURAGE more roleplaying than ever before. What exactly are you looking for specifically since I've tried showing WHY the 4E system encourages roleplaying more than ever but you basically say "oh, no it doesn't"

The actual combat chapter in the PHB is 30 pages which includes a listing of all status conditions as well as what would be considered the opening pages of the spell chapter from previous editions.

 

[Joe Sala]

Since the thread is becoming bitter, this is my last post. And I hope my position is clear enough. When I read about the fourth edition, I thought one of the designer's goals was:

"We'll offer many more possibilities"

But this one was discarded. Instead D&D4 is simply:

"We offer exactly the same but much better"

Which is good, but not enough for me.

 

[SuperGnome]

Haven't seen the books yet (on order though), and I'm curious.

What are the first two sentances in the Rogue entry? I ask anyone who has access to the books.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Counterspin]

Since the thread is becoming bitter, this is my last post. And I hope my position is clear enough. When I read about the fourth edition, I thought one of the designer's goals was:

"We'll offer many more possibilities"

But this one was discarded. Instead D&D4 is simply:

"We offer exactly the same but much better"

Which is good, but not enough for me.

Is it to much to ask that when you claim that other people misled you that you at least site how you were misled? You read it, it's still on the internet, give us a link.

 

[Joe Sala]

What are the first two sentances in the Rogue entry? I ask anyone who has access to the books.

Ok, one more post

"Rogues are cunning and elusive adversaires. Rogues slip into and out of shadows on a whim, pass anywhere across the field of battle without fear of reprisal, and appear sudenly only to drive home a lethal blade."