D&D 5E (2014) What’s So Great About Medieval Europe?

[Jester David]

I strongly disagree that society has a general rule about that. I may be wrong, especially about the US, a place that I only know second-hand. For the part of society that I got to meet in person, though, this is not even an issue that is worthy of having social rules about, especially general rules.

Funny thing. Disagreeing with a rule doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

When people argue "well, I don't think _____ is racist" it very seldom looks good, even if they are right.

 

[billd91]

That is very much the catch-22.

I've seen people on Twitter ask why there are so few afrocentric campaign settings for D&D. The harsh answer is "because there are so few people of African decent working in gaming."

Which leads to the easy fix of hiring more People of Colour for gaming positions and supporting the ones in the industry.

Does it really? Particularly here in the US, I'm not sure that should get a pass and it's bound up in all sorts of problems people have in applying the claim of cultural appropriation. Does the average African-American, whose ancestors may have been brought to the US via a system of brutal cultural eradication, actually have the authority to write an Afrocentric campaign setting without also engaging in cultural appropriation or being just as likely to engage in the tropes and stereotypes as anybody else? I'm not so sure but I think it's problematic to assume they would simply because they're people of the appropriate color.

 

[Reynard]

Does it really? Particularly here in the US, I'm not sure that should get a pass and it's bound up in all sorts of problems people have in applying the claim of cultural appropriation. Does the average African-American, whose ancestors may have been brought to the US via a system of brutal cultural eradication, actually have the authority to write an Afrocentric campaign setting without also engaging in cultural appropriation or being just as likely to engage in the tropes and stereotypes as anybody else? I'm not so sure but I think it's problematic to assume they would simply because they're people of the appropriate color.

You aren't going to grab a random African American off the street to write your fantasy Africa book. You are going to look at writers with the talent to do it well and if you have the choice between equally talented white and African American authors, you are going to pick the latter. That's how you put out quality content and diversify the talent pool.

 

[Jester David]

I'll admit that although I'm usually on the PC side of the debates here, I don't (yet?) buy into the argument that majority cultures shouldn't produce "content" (RPGs, novels, music) that appropriate ideas/themes/etc. from minority cultures. I don't think Paul Simon is a bad person for "Graceland", for example. In my view he helped South African music gain worldwide attention.

EDIT: Certainly one is courting trouble by trying to characterize a culture they're not familiar with. But that makes it a bad idea because it's risky, not because it's evil.

Then again, a friend (or not...) once reminded me of some reprehensible things I said about gay people in high school in the 80's...that I don't even remember. Now I'm aghast at what I used to think, so maybe I just haven't understood this particular issue well enough yet. I'm trying to keep an open mind.

Cultural appropriation is both super old and still fairly new. It's fuzzy.

People have been commenting on Elvis stealing Black music since the '50s. Or Eminem in the '00s.
And often how well loved the property is determines if it's appropriation. Like Neil Gaiman and Mister Nancy/ Anansi Boys. Or Avatar: the Last Airbender which is 110% Asian cultures and art—both classical and apeing modern anime in style—but was entirely made by white people with all the characters (save one) voiced by white people. But that generally gets a pass because it's freakin' awesome.


But in terms of RPGs I think the easy questions are:
1) If this is meant to lovingly emulate a particular real world culture, how come no people of that culture were involved in its creation? (Even as consultants.)
2) If no one from the culture is involved, how can you be 100% certain there are absolutely no negative stereotypes or tropes in the product?

 

[MGibster]

That's why it is a general rule and not a specific one. If someone is going to produce a sourcebook for, say, a campaign set in medieval Afghanistan, one would expect that not only would the Western authors thoroughly research it, they would hire writers or at least consultants and sensitivity readers from Afghanistan and with historical knowledge of the place. It isn't a particularly high bar.

I'm often reminded that game companies have very limited funds so I don't really expect them to hire consultants or sensitivity readers from Afghanistan. I would imagine someone who produced a game based on medieval Afghanistan would be an individual who was extremely passionate about the subject similar to Greg Stafford's passion about Arthurian stories. I wouldn't necessarily expect it to stand up to the rigors of academia though.

It's also important to note that cultural appropriation is a very real thing, but it does not include any and every use of culture in media. Cultural appropriation is crappy Halloween costumes and insensitive sports logos and poorly researched game manuals.

As someone who uses the Phoenician alphabet and Arabic numerals on a daily basis I certainly agree with you that cultural appropriation is real. And while I'll agree with you that cultural appropriation is bad in many cases there are also many cases where it's good. I can't just issue a blanket condemnation of the practice.

 

[billd91]

You aren't going to grab a random African American off the street to write your fantasy Africa book. You are going to look at writers with the talent to do it well and if you have the choice between equally talented white and African American authors, you are going to pick the latter. That's how you put out quality content and diversify the talent pool.

Diversifying the talent pool is a very different question from claiming the authority to write about/adapt a culture for gaming. And I'd still submit that claiming greater authority by a racial characteristic of the writer rather than the essential character of the work done is highly problematic.

 

[Jester David]

Does it really? Particularly here in the US, I'm not sure that should get a pass and it's bound up in all sorts of problems people have in applying the claim of cultural appropriation. Does the average African-American, whose ancestors may have been brought to the US via a system of brutal cultural eradication, actually have the authority to write an Afrocentric campaign setting without also engaging in cultural appropriation or being just as likely to engage in the tropes and stereotypes as anybody else? I'm not so sure but I think it's problematic to assume they would simply because they're people of the appropriate color.

Maybe not.

But is it better if the ancestors of the people who committed said brutal cultural eradication write said product?

 

[billd91]

Maybe not.

But is it better if the ancestors of the people who committed said brutal cultural eradication write said product?

Again, depending on someone's racial characteristics, even ancestry, to either give authority or remove authority without considering the essential work in question? Highly problematic.

 

[Krachek]

I think the TV show The last kingdom can give some hint about medieval era.
But for DnD inspiration it is missing some elements:
No Magnificent castle
No large library
No commercial guild and wide commercial supply.
no organized crime, no assassin guild
no plate armor
no big inn
in fact compare to most DnD setting, medieval world look boring and lackluster.

 

[Nellisir]

It's admittedly a poor and imperfect analogy, but it gets the emotional point across.

Who hasn't stared at those parking stalls and fumed because they had to walk four or five extra meters from a less desirable spot? The focus on what you're denied rather than what you have, and ignoring the invisible advantages bestowed.

Thats...
Well. I get what you're going for, and I never doubted the good intent behind it. If you're comfortable sticking with it, so be it.