Crimson Longinus
Legend
There is a reason why a lot of AD&D mechanics were jettisoned. And younger gamers are used to games with coherent and unified mechanics, so the incoherent riot of discrete mechanics like in AD&D would be rejected.
D&D General What’s The Big Deal About Psionics?
- Thread starter Smackpixi
- Start date
James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
"Worse" is a value judgement that can only be demonstrably proven by consensus (that is to say, what more people find better/easier to use). Most people think that Base Attack Bonus, for example, is superior to Thac0 or the older attack matrices. But there is, and will always be disagreement on that point. Certainly, some older systems were not streamlined or concise, and sometimes confusing. Many subsystems that required percentage rolls, for example, were phased out in order to streamline the game and make it's rules easier to digest.
I think the proper term we should use is "familiar". If the 3.5 XPH system is more familiar to more players than the 1e system found in the Appendices or the 2e system found in the CPH, that will probably be the system used as the foundation for a newer system because it is more familiar to a broader audience.
The purpose of 5e was to "bring everyone along for the ride". I think Move, Minor, Standard was a better system than "so you can move but it's not really an action, just a thing you do, and you can take an action. sometimes you can take a bonus action". We could debate which is worse, but in the end, the 5e design team went with something they thought the majority of players and DM's would find familiar and easier to use.
Or they just wanted people not to think of 4e mechanics having anything to do with 5e. : )
I think the proper term we should use is "familiar". If the 3.5 XPH system is more familiar to more players than the 1e system found in the Appendices or the 2e system found in the CPH, that will probably be the system used as the foundation for a newer system because it is more familiar to a broader audience.
The purpose of 5e was to "bring everyone along for the ride". I think Move, Minor, Standard was a better system than "so you can move but it's not really an action, just a thing you do, and you can take an action. sometimes you can take a bonus action". We could debate which is worse, but in the end, the 5e design team went with something they thought the majority of players and DM's would find familiar and easier to use.
Or they just wanted people not to think of 4e mechanics having anything to do with 5e. : )
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I and my group introduced several players new to gaming to D&D through 1st ed. They had at least as much fun as we did,, and understood the rules just fine. Don't assume that just because simplicity is king in the modern world that young people can't handle some complexity.
Crimson Longinus
Legend
It's not that they couldn't handle it, unnecessary complexity and incoherent design is just awkward and annoying. There is a reason why games have not been designed like that for a long time.
But who knows, maybe I'm wrong, and AD&D renaissance is just around the corner!
But I wouldn't be holding my breath...
James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Micah Sweet: I'm glad your players had no problems with the rules for 1e. I have had mixed results in the past when trying to explain mechanics to new players! I actually remember one incident from an attempt to run a 2e game. A player wanted to know how to punch someone, since a fight broke out and they only had a dagger on them.
I turned to the back of the book, explained the Punching/Wrestling rules and how they worked, and they just looked at me cross eyed. "Why doesn't a punch just do 1d2 damage?"
"Well, you see, this system lets you use a variety of different moves, and each has it's own characteristics."
"So why is there only one way to swing a sword, but 20 ways to punch a guy?"
"I, uh, er, that is...well each move has a different KO%."
"And how do I hit on a 1, anyways?"
"Oh that's if you choose to specialize, you can alter the actual attack you wish to use from the number you roll."
"Oh, so only Fighters can do that."
"Oh no, anyone can specialize in Punching or Wrestling."
"But only Fighters get Weapon Specialization."
"Well, I mean, you're not using a weapon, so it's completely different."
"Ok, so, if I punch the Troll, I have a 10% chance to knock it out?"
"Oh well, no, actually, creatures that regenerate can't be knocked out."
"....right, ok, I'll stab it with a dagger instead."
I turned to the back of the book, explained the Punching/Wrestling rules and how they worked, and they just looked at me cross eyed. "Why doesn't a punch just do 1d2 damage?"
"Well, you see, this system lets you use a variety of different moves, and each has it's own characteristics."
"So why is there only one way to swing a sword, but 20 ways to punch a guy?"
"I, uh, er, that is...well each move has a different KO%."
"And how do I hit on a 1, anyways?"
"Oh that's if you choose to specialize, you can alter the actual attack you wish to use from the number you roll."
"Oh, so only Fighters can do that."
"Oh no, anyone can specialize in Punching or Wrestling."
"But only Fighters get Weapon Specialization."
"Well, I mean, you're not using a weapon, so it's completely different."
"Ok, so, if I punch the Troll, I have a 10% chance to knock it out?"
"Oh well, no, actually, creatures that regenerate can't be knocked out."
"....right, ok, I'll stab it with a dagger instead."
Yaarel
🇮🇱He-Mage
D&D is such a complex game, it must be as simple as possible wherever possible.
...
So, I am thinking about superheroes.
The main difference is superhero powers tend to be always-on, while spell slots are like ammunition that get used up. Superman can fly whenever he wants, his body is always steel hard, he shoots lasers out of his eyes at-will, his cold breath is probably at-will too, superhearing always on, etcetera. How to represent such things?
Cantrips do heavy lifting. Laser eyes are a cantrip. Cold breath might be a cantrip, possibly augmenting with slots.
Flight is awkward in 5e. It is a slot 3 spell, and deserves to be because it is powerful, to engage, escape, "kite", obviate barriers, etcetera. But. Designers have made flight available at level 1 via races, and I dont hear char-op championing it or DMs complaining (too much). It seems designers want to normalize flight at level 1. With this consideration in mind, maybe:
Flight is a cantrip that allows a walking speed in any direction. Either the speeds improve at levels 5, 11, and 17, automatically as many cantrip effects do, or use spell slots for bursts of speed.
Body armor is like a Mage Armor that is "always on". Mage Armor could be a cantrip. It could improve while leveling, or augment with spell slots to spike AC.
A new mechanic?
Possibly, there can be a new mechanic called "always-on". It means that the spell can occupy a spell slot. The effect is always on while occupying that slot. If occupied, the slot cannot be used for an other spell. Freeing the slot up to use it for an other spell, ends the always-on effect.
Consider X-Men Wolverine and his regeneration ability. To dedicate a spell slot for always-on Regeneration spell can represent this superpower.
Depending on the spell concept, some spells have the always-on tag. Where a spell mentions the "at higher levels" tag, the spell can instead have an "always-on" tag, that lists the benefits for each slot level that it can occupy.
The always-on mechanic helps keep the character concept more focused, because occupying a spell slot keeps the flavor of the effect in play indefinitely, and prevents the slot from being used for other flavors.
At the same time, the always-on spell is voluntary. If the player wants, one can end the always-on effect by unoccupying the slot to spend it on a Players Handbook spell.
...
So, I am thinking about superheroes.
The main difference is superhero powers tend to be always-on, while spell slots are like ammunition that get used up. Superman can fly whenever he wants, his body is always steel hard, he shoots lasers out of his eyes at-will, his cold breath is probably at-will too, superhearing always on, etcetera. How to represent such things?
Cantrips do heavy lifting. Laser eyes are a cantrip. Cold breath might be a cantrip, possibly augmenting with slots.
Flight is awkward in 5e. It is a slot 3 spell, and deserves to be because it is powerful, to engage, escape, "kite", obviate barriers, etcetera. But. Designers have made flight available at level 1 via races, and I dont hear char-op championing it or DMs complaining (too much). It seems designers want to normalize flight at level 1. With this consideration in mind, maybe:
Flight is a cantrip that allows a walking speed in any direction. Either the speeds improve at levels 5, 11, and 17, automatically as many cantrip effects do, or use spell slots for bursts of speed.
Body armor is like a Mage Armor that is "always on". Mage Armor could be a cantrip. It could improve while leveling, or augment with spell slots to spike AC.
A new mechanic?
Possibly, there can be a new mechanic called "always-on". It means that the spell can occupy a spell slot. The effect is always on while occupying that slot. If occupied, the slot cannot be used for an other spell. Freeing the slot up to use it for an other spell, ends the always-on effect.
Consider X-Men Wolverine and his regeneration ability. To dedicate a spell slot for always-on Regeneration spell can represent this superpower.
Depending on the spell concept, some spells have the always-on tag. Where a spell mentions the "at higher levels" tag, the spell can instead have an "always-on" tag, that lists the benefits for each slot level that it can occupy.
The always-on mechanic helps keep the character concept more focused, because occupying a spell slot keeps the flavor of the effect in play indefinitely, and prevents the slot from being used for other flavors.
At the same time, the always-on spell is voluntary. If the player wants, one can end the always-on effect by unoccupying the slot to spend it on a Players Handbook spell.
I'll try to sum it up.
Psionic powers in 2e came in six disciplines: clairsentience, metapsionics, psychokinesis, psychometabolism, psychoportation, and telepathy. Metapsionics was a more advanced thing that mostly had powers that made other powers work differently. Within each discipline, powers were divided into the more powerful Sciences and the less powerful Devotions. Level generally didn't matter much for power use, though some powers had level as an additional prerequisite (this was particularly common with metapsionics). It was however common for powers to have other powers as prerequisites, which acted as something of a roadblock to the more powerful ones, but only for a few levels. Psychokinesis, psychoportation, and telepathy in particular had a large portion of their powers gated behind one particular Science (Telekinesis, Teleportation, and Mindlink, respectively). Psionicists started with access to a single discipline and a small number of powers (IIRC, one science and three devotions), and gained more with higher levels. The discipline chosen at first level would be your primary discipline, and no other discipline could have as many sciences or devotions as that one had. This combined with the gating meant that for the most part you had to be pretty high level to get access to most Sciences in your secondary disciplines. If a non-telepath wanted the Science Domination for example, they would first need another Science Mindlink. And that's two Sciences in telepathy, which means they need at least three Sciences in their primary discipline, which is a total of 5 which can't be had until level 9.
Activating a power would require a roll: d20 equal to or below your Power Score for that power, which was equal to one of your ability scores (most commonly Wisdom but fairly often Intelligence or Constitution, the latter particularly for psychometabolism) plus a modifier (usually negative). Some powers would also have other modifiers: Telekinesis, for example, would be more difficult and more costly the heavier the object you were trying to lift. A success meant you activated the power which then took effect, and you had to pay its activation cost in Psionic Strength Points (which increased mostly linearly with level). A failure would cost half the PSPs. Most powers could then be maintained for a lower PSP cost each round (or occasionally longer) – they almost never had fixed durations, but were around for as long as you kept maintaining them. PSPs would continually regenerate based on your activity level, on the scale of hours. At higher levels, it was quite possible that a night's sleep would not suffice to regenerate your full complement of PSPs (depending on your stats, this would happen some time between level 8 and 10). On the other hand, a similar limit applied to casters who required long times to memorize their spells: a 10th level 2e specialist wizard would require 9 hours of spell memorization (after sleeping) if they had expended all their spells the day before).
Telepathy in particular worked a bit strangely. Most telepathic powers first required you to use the power Contact on the target. Against non-psionic targets (and wild talents), this was a fairly easy affair, just make a roll for a fairly high power score, pay some PSPs (based on target level/HD IIRC), and you've made contact. After that you could use most telepathic powers freely on the target, and many did not grant saves. This was a fairly strong aspect of the 2e psionicist, but somewhat limited by the need to take a round to make contact first.
Psionicists and psionic creatures, on the other hand, had "closed minds", so a regular Contact would not suffice. That's where psionic combat came into the picture. In order to breach a closed mind, an attacker would need to use attack modes: a set of five particular telepathic powers. These had to be selected as normal powers, and in addition to their use in psionic combat they also had effects when used on an already contacted mind. Psionicists also gained a number of defense modes for free that would help them withstand psionic attacks. Using psionic attacks and defenses would of course cost PSPs (except for the Mind Blank defense mode which was free, but pretty weak). In order to breach a closed mind, you needed to establish three "tangents", each of which would require an opposed roll of power scores. The attacker would gain a modifier to their power score based on which attack was used against what defense, in a sort of rock/paper/scissor system. The opposed rolls used what are commonly referred to Pendragon rolls: highest roll that's still a success wins.
There was also a later version of the psionics rules in the revised Dark Sun boxed set as well as Skills & Powers. These were based on the same principles for the most part, but differed in important details (psionic combat being the most important one, with tangents replaced by having to burn through your opponent's PSPs, which was kind of difficult given that most attack modes cost the attacker more PSPs than they would deal "damage" to the defender).
---------
That's about as much detail as the boards can take, I think. All of that said, I am not particularly fond of the mechanics of 2e psionics, which to a large degree felt like they had been adapted from some other, more skill-based game. They were wonky, and often highly limited (needing to roll against Con-3 in order to activate your healing power is a bit of a bummer), and with rare exceptions kinda weak, particularly given their linear nature (PSPs scaled linearly with level, and most powers didn't really have stronger effects at higher levels). What I want is the feel: something distinct from magic, and something that feels cerebral and enlightened. They should feel like a mind that has achieved a higher state of consciousness, not a mind that has been corrupted by foul influences (I'd be willing to entertain the latter as an option, perhaps connected to particular powers, but not as the default mode). Ideally you should also have the feel of a small number of core abilities that manifest in different ways: while Awe, Daydream, ESP, False Sensory Input, and Inflict Pain are all mechanically distinct powers, they feel like you're using the same telepathic ability to achieve a particular thing.
I'm not fan of pre3e Psionic mechanics. But I am a fan of Psionics not using 9 levels, 9 schools, 4/3/3/3/...magic rules.
Contrary to popular belief, it isn't the best system. It's ported in for nostalgia and forged to "work"
5e uses 4 tiers of play so the best magic system would have levels of a number divisible by 4. And since D&D psionics has 6 specialties, it should 6 schools.
5e assumes 6-8 encounters. So the baes psioinics would have a number of powers used per day divisible by 6, 7, or 8 or one of their factors. Since all the proficiency bonuses except +5 are factors of 6 or 8, multiples of it works.
6 disciplines X 4 tiers = 24 psionic powers.
Contrary to popular belief, it isn't the best system. It's ported in for nostalgia and forged to "work"
5e uses 4 tiers of play so the best magic system would have levels of a number divisible by 4. And since D&D psionics has 6 specialties, it should 6 schools.
5e assumes 6-8 encounters. So the baes psioinics would have a number of powers used per day divisible by 6, 7, or 8 or one of their factors. Since all the proficiency bonuses except +5 are factors of 6 or 8, multiples of it works.
6 disciplines X 4 tiers = 24 psionic powers.
- 6 Psionic Disciplines
- 4 Psionic Powers per Discipline,one per tier of play
- 24 total Psionic Powers
- Psionic Power Dice equal to 3 times your Proficiency Modifier
LuisCarlos17f
Legend
We should rembember the psionic constructs are mindless, and they can sent to explore the rooms within the dungeons and you shouldn't worry about suffering the traps.
Superheroes can be a great source of inspiration, but these aren't easy to be adapted to a game, tabletop or videoconsole.
We are too used to the pool of power points to change it now, but we know the gameplay is as sorcerers with power points but without the verbal, material or somatic components to cast spells.
If a psionic mystic could create little pieces of ectoplasm, it could be enough to block canons of firearms. Have you thought about that? Or to create an effecting like watering gunpowder. If the ectoplasm avoids the contact between the explosive component and the oxygen, then the explosion can be avoided.
Superheroes can be a great source of inspiration, but these aren't easy to be adapted to a game, tabletop or videoconsole.
We are too used to the pool of power points to change it now, but we know the gameplay is as sorcerers with power points but without the verbal, material or somatic components to cast spells.
If a psionic mystic could create little pieces of ectoplasm, it could be enough to block canons of firearms. Have you thought about that? Or to create an effecting like watering gunpowder. If the ectoplasm avoids the contact between the explosive component and the oxygen, then the explosion can be avoided.
James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
I'm going to be honest, I have yet to play a 5e game "day" with 6 encounters. The most I can recall is 5, and one of those was such an anemic encounter that we didn't even have to use resources (I think it was something like 2 cultists and 3-4 kobolds, the cultists weren't even spellcasters).
What I've noticed is a lot of DM's realize that to get 6 encounters, the xp budget leaves some of them being things like "three bugbears standing guard" that get steamrolled with minimal effort, so they go for fewer, tougher fights which forces you to bring your "A-game", but really messes with short rest mechanics (probably a reason why it seems WotC wants to do away with those).
What I've noticed is a lot of DM's realize that to get 6 encounters, the xp budget leaves some of them being things like "three bugbears standing guard" that get steamrolled with minimal effort, so they go for fewer, tougher fights which forces you to bring your "A-game", but really messes with short rest mechanics (probably a reason why it seems WotC wants to do away with those).
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