What alignment is Baltar?

[tzor]

if he was truly evil he would be more like the one-dimensional Baltar from the original series, who handed his entire race to the Cylons for no discernible reason that I could see.

I've never watched the new series, but I'm an expert on the old. Baltar did the classical deal with the devil (literally as it turned out because old bubble head - odd how one only got rear shots of the original emperor - was in fact the fallen one himself - "I know that voice" is a line from Baltar from the old series I will never forget) and when he realized that his own neck was on the line he would do anything to survive. If he was not already he became exceptionally vile, even Lucifier was questioning his morals at times. (Lucifier in the old series was Lawful Neutural, although a good push would have made him good, after all if all you saw for the race of man was Baltar, killing them really would seem like a "good" act.)

It really was a shame the old series committed suicide in 1980. Fortunately some of the plotlines had already been wrapped up and it will forever remain an example of epic television, which in my not so humble opinion was only topped by Babylon V.

 

[sckeener]

Nonsense. He knew what Gina was going to do, and gave her the weapon anyway. He shares full responsibility for the consequences.

To continue your sword analogy, let's say you're a town blacksmith. A man walks past your shop on the street, and you recognize him as an old acquaintance who is now a wanted murderer-- the leader of a violent gang. His gang has murdered a number of people in your neighborhood recently. In fact you're pretty sure he personally killed a woman you were acquainted with (but you didn't like her anyway). You rush out of your shop, hand the man a +5 unholy humanbane greatsword as a present, and wish him a good afternoon.

Later, when he has used your sword to slaughter a whole lot more innocent people, you don't get to plead ignorance.

that wasn't exactly the case....To continue the sword analogy, the blacksmith sees a twin of the woman he loves but of the race that is attacking the village. She's been abused and tortured by village. He still loves her twin and would like to heal & protect her.

So far this is all sounding pretty alturistic, respect for life, and a concern for the
dignity of sentient beings....all pretty good acts....from pg 104

Now I am not sure ever giving a weapon to anyone is a good deed...but if you consider self defense a good deed, then giving a sword to protect the twin of the woman you love from the villiagers that torturered and abused the image of the woman you love....that would be a good deed.

For all Baltar knew, she might have only used it if the villagers came to attack her again...he certainly didn't predict how it was used.

 

[sckeener]

Neutral Evil, “Malefactor”: A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn’t have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.

This sounds exactly like Baltar to me. While I can agree that he may have begun the slide toward Chaotic Evil toward the end of the second season, up to that point, he was a textbook NE character.

I could go for N or CN...

From the PHB about neutral between good and evil

People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships. A neutral person may sacrifice himself to protect his family or even his homeland, but he would not do so for strangers who are not related to him.

I think the red part sums it up. He's committed to enemy only because of personal relationships. He put himself on the line for 6's abused twin and for the cylon baby. If he was truly out for himself, he could have dodged other directions during those discussions.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I could go for N or CN...

From the PHB about neutral between good and evil



I think the red part sums it up. He's committed to enemy only because of personal relationships. He put himself on the line for 6's abused twin and for the cylon baby. If he was truly out for himself, he could have dodged other directions during those discussions.

He didn't just have a relationship with her. He manipulated her, too. He used the exact same words that his Phantom Six said to get Gina on his side - talking about the Pyramid game and how he would have loved to watch it with her. Evil people have relationships, too, and they will motivate them to act - but he manipulated and lied to her for his own self-interest. That alone doesn't make him evil, but put all things together, I think he is evil.

....

When Six tells Baltar about the cylon manipulations to his program - the first thing he really thinks about is how it affects him perosnally - he doesn't think about friends, about Six, or anything else - he wants to call his lawyer to get him out of the situation. Purely egoistical reaction.
This scene might also indicate he is chaotic, in the way that he doesn't like take responsibility, seeing it as something endangering his freedom. He doesn't want to make responsible for the genocide of the human race.
In later episodes, he uses "gods will" as his way to give the responsiblity to someone else than him(it doesn't really matter wether Phantom Six is an angel, a Cylon implant or Baltars crazyness - after some initial complaints, he is perfectly willing to accept his role given by god).
He also changes his sex partners a few times in the series, never committing to any of the relationships.
The way he manipulates people might also show chaotic behaviour - he basically talks Boomer into suicide, but he never makes a decision or takes any responsibility for it.

Still, there are also a few situations in which he takes responsibility -
he kills Crashdown to stop a suicidal mission (which might have egoistical motives and isn't really a lawful act). He takes charge of Gina's safety (which might even be "good", though it still begs the questions if it was more for his benefit or hers...)

 

[kenobi65]

Can we agree that Admiral Cain is probably Lawful Evil?

Well, not anymore. Corpses don't have alignments.

 

[Garnfellow]

Well, not anymore. Corpses don't have alignments.

I originally wrote "was", but didn't want to be a spoiler.

 

[Wolfwood2]

Admiral Caine is a classic example of someone falling into evil while being convinced at every step of the way they are doing what is right and necessary.

I'm part-way convinced that Baltar could be neutral evil, but I still hesitate to assign him away from chaotic. It's his impulsiveness that gets to me. One of Baltar's defining character traits is that he rarely plans anything out in advance. Even he never knows what he's going to do until the moment he does it. He has no respect for any authority, although he sometimes puts up a false show of respect out of fear.

It's weird. If I look at the "neutral evil" description and the "chaotic evil" description, Baltar seems more neutral evil.

But if I ask myself, "Independent of his place on the good/evil axis, is he more chaotic or more lawful?" I always come back to him being extremely chaotic.

 

[MarkB]

Admiral Caine is a classic example of someone falling into evil while being convinced at every step of the way they are doing what is right and necessary.

I'm part-way convinced that Baltar could be neutral evil, but I still hesitate to assign him away from chaotic. It's his impulsiveness that gets to me. One of Baltar's defining character traits is that he rarely plans anything out in advance. Even he never knows what he's going to do until the moment he does it. He has no respect for any authority, although he sometimes puts up a false show of respect out of fear.

It's weird. If I look at the "neutral evil" description and the "chaotic evil" description, Baltar seems more neutral evil.

But if I ask myself, "Independent of his place on the good/evil axis, is he more chaotic or more lawful?" I always come back to him being extremely chaotic.

I don't see Baltar's lack of planning and discipline as being a chaotic nature, so much as an utter laziness on his part. He has such a huge sense of entitlement that he just doesn't see the need to make contingency plans, because he never really sees that things will go wrong for him until they do. He's not impulsive, so much as constantly caught out by life's adversities. He's certainly not lawful, but I hesitate to categorise his brand of self-obsessed apathy as chaotic, either.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I go with "chaotic" based on the fact that he follows his impulses (and his libido!), is constantly confused about how and why he's going about things even beyond the moral dilemmas, and tends to regard (and fear) people based on their personal presence rather than any legal authority they may have.

Neutral vs. evil is harder. I actually think that the description of NE in the PHB doesn't quite go far enough in distinguishing between mere selfishness and true malice. One could argue, for instance, the following:
Han Solo, “Malefactor”: Until the end of Star Wars: A New Hope, Han Solo does whatever he can get away with. He is out for himself, pure and simple. He sheds no tears for those he kills. He has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble.
Note that I removed "sport[] or "convenience" from the above, but OTOH, Baltar doesn't kill anyone for those reasons either. In fact, he does seem to shed tears over the victims of his betrayals, in a sense. Maybe my definition of evil is a bit more stringent than others', but I think that just being out to save your own tuckus at whatever cost is less evil than straight-up neutral, especially if you're chaotic and therefore devoted to the universe of one, as it were.

Part of this is the fact that Baltar's responses, while often serving the cause of evil deeds and (seemingly) evil purposes, aren't really consciously malicious but more just unsavory but understandable gut responses. His calling for his lawyer is a self-obsessed prat gesture, but not necessarily born out of ill intent toward his fellow man. He feels enough of a sense of guilt to refuse to deceive the woman who wins the lottery to get onto Sharon and Helo's ship. Most of what he does (in fact practically all of it, up to the point at which the story, as one person put it "jumps the shark" a bit) is motivated by a driving need to CYA. He's driven by fear... of exposure, of his conscience, and eventually of the draconian punishments levied upon Cylons and Cylon collaborators. I find this difficult to reconcile with "evil" per se. He aids the commitment of evil deeds, but I imagine that we all have several neutral-aligned NPCs in our games who do that.