What alignment is Baltar?

[Wolfwood2]

Every firefighter and police officer can get another job. That they do a job which, by definition, puts them in harm's way on behalf of others makes them good, yes.

I don't think I agree. Please understand I don't mean this as any insult to firefighters and police officers, because something can be noble and admirable here in the real world without strictly being 'good' by D&D standards.

Everything I've read says that people who go into those professions with the idea that they're going to be self-sacrificing heroes don't last. (Especially police officers.) Those who last are those who view it as a job, which they will perform with the utmost possible safety and professionalism for all concerned, but still a job which they perform primarily because it is a job they enjoy, not as a sacrifice they are making to help others.

There may come a moment when a policeman or firefighter may have to sacrifice themselves to save others, just as there might come such a moment for anyone. (Though they are more likely to be placed in such a situation.) If such a moment comes and they put themselves in that place, then that is certainly a Good act, not only by D&D standards but by any standards.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I don't think I agree. Please understand I don't mean this as any insult to firefighters and police officers, because something can be noble and admirable here in the real world without strictly being 'good' by D&D standards.

Everything I've read says that people who go into those professions with the idea that they're going to be self-sacrificing heroes don't last. (Especially police officers.) Those who last are those who view it as a job, which they will perform with the utmost possible safety and professionalism for all concerned, but still a job which they perform primarily because it is a job they enjoy, not as a sacrifice they are making to help others.

There may come a moment when a policeman or firefighter may have to sacrifice themselves to save others, just as there might come such a moment for anyone. (Though they are more likely to be placed in such a situation.) If such a moment comes and they put themselves in that place, then that is certainly a Good act, not only by D&D standards but by any standards.

Again, they can get a job doing something else.

The job they choose to do, by definition, requires them to put themselves in harm's way for others.

They're not working at McDonald's, they're not filing papers in an office, they're not driving a forklift. They're dealing with armed and dangerous people or running into fires every day. By choice.

They do things that most ordinary (neutral) people would not do, voluntarily.

 

[domino]

I figure he's Chaotic Horny.

 

[Wolfwood2]

Again, they can get a job doing something else.

The job they choose to do, by definition, requires them to put themselves in harm's way for others.

They're not working at McDonald's, they're not filing papers in an office, they're not driving a forklift. They're dealing with armed and dangerous people or running into fires every day. By choice.

They do things that most ordinary (neutral) people would not do, voluntarily.

I am so, so, so stupid for responding to this because you are not going to get it. I am going to say something and you are not going to get it, but I will say it again.

They are doing a job, which requires them to put themselves in harm's way, because it is a job they enjoy. And while some part of the enjoyment comes from the fact that they are helping others, a large part of it has to come from enjoying the routine, day-to-day life of the job. Someone who hates the job, hates the day to day routine of it, will not last, no matter how strong their desire to help others.

Please compare this to other risky, dangerous jobs, like being an oil rig operator or a logger or a North Atlantic fisherman. All of those jobs are, statistically speaking, more dangerous than being a fireman or a police officer. Yet people do them anyway, voluntarily, and no one is being directly helped by it.

Why do people do these ordinary (neutral) people do these jobs, which are more dangerous than being a fireman or a police officer? Because they enjoy their work and find pleasure in doing their jobs, which is a perfectly neutral (by D&D standards) reason to be doing something.

Most successful firemen and police officers do their jobs for the exact same reason. Not out of a Good (by D&D standards) desire to help people, but out of a Neutral (by D&D standards) enjoyment of their jobs.

And I'm confident that if you ask any long-time fireman or police officer, they will tell you exactly that.

 

[Balgus]

I don't think I agree. Please understand I don't mean this as any insult to firefighters and police officers, because something can be noble and admirable here in the real world without strictly being 'good' by D&D standards.

Everything I've read says that people who go into those professions with the idea that they're going to be self-sacrificing heroes don't last. (Especially police officers.) Those who last are those who view it as a job, which they will perform with the utmost possible safety and professionalism for all concerned, but still a job which they perform primarily because it is a job they enjoy, not as a sacrifice they are making to help others.

There may come a moment when a policeman or firefighter may have to sacrifice themselves to save others, just as there might come such a moment for anyone. (Though they are more likely to be placed in such a situation.) If such a moment comes and they put themselves in that place, then that is certainly a Good act, not only by D&D standards but by any standards.

I am going to have to agree with Whizbang. Everyone has the choice of a career. The fact that someoen chose this career path proves to some degrtee that they wanted to help others.

Now, once they make it into the system and join the force, things happen that changes a person. An person may see that they have to bend the rules, and step outside the realm of law to get a job done (crooked cops) that does not make them evil. That makes them chaotic- where they disregard the law and take matters into their own hands. Their intent is still the same- they wish to serve and protect. the way they choose to do it is what is debated.

Off topic- to speak for the officers- which I dont think anyone doubts tehir bravery in taking up this profession in the first place- You are dealing with the worst possible scum that life has to offer on a daily basis. Every day, every call is something that you and I see only on the news- and you have to know that that has to be disheartening. Now there are some crazys that take on jobs to get closer to their target prey- but that is another story.

I actually wnated to be a cop, but I took a ride along in San Jose- and that opened my eyes. I was a young kid full of hope and aspirations to be a great police officer, and change the system and make a difference ... But after that- I saw that I would only be a drone- dealing with kids that poke at the hive every day and there's nothing I can do except my job- and that is to deal with each incident as they come along.

 

[Wolfwood2]

I am going to have to agree with Whizbang. Everyone has the choice of a career. The fact that someoen chose this career path proves to some degrtee that they wanted to help others.

See the post I have made just above yours.

Everything I have read written by long time police officers states that while a desire to help people may bring them to the job, it is never enough on its own. A policeman who does not enjoy his job will not be successful, no matter how great his desire to help people.

 

[The_Universe]

Neutral Evil, “Malefactor”: A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn’t have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.

This sounds exactly like Baltar to me. While I can agree that he may have begun the slide toward Chaotic Evil toward the end of the second season, up to that point, he was a textbook NE character.

 

[Queen_Dopplepopolis]

I don't have anything to add (yet - need to continue thinking, but I figure CE or NE)... just wanted to say "great thread!" I've really enjoyed reading everything so far.

 

[Klaus]

This sounds exactly like Baltar to me. While I can agree that he may have begun the slide toward Chaotic Evil toward the end of the second season, up to that point, he was a textbook NE character.

I think The Universe is right on the spot. Baltar plans some things, does some stuff impulsively, and his angst over his actions is just to justify them to himself, since he keeps doing them anyway. He's not only Neutral Evil, he's Neutral Evil Hypocritical.


Starbuck seems a bit on the Chaotic side (on contrast with the more Lawful crew, NG possibly even CG). The Cylons, as a whole, seem Lawful Evil (with their systematic erradication of another race). Helo, specially due to the pilot episode, seems Lawful Good.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I am so, so, so stupid for responding to this because you are not going to get it. I am going to say something and you are not going to get it, but I will say it again.

I know this is the Internet, and this is a shocking proposition, but someone can understand you and disagree. I understand what you're saying. I think you're wrong. (I happen to know police officers and firefighters, for one thing.)

Please compare this to other risky, dangerous jobs, like being an oil rig operator or a logger or a North Atlantic fisherman. All of those jobs are, statistically speaking, more dangerous than being a fireman or a police officer. Yet people do them anyway, voluntarily, and no one is being directly helped by it.

Pays well, pays well, strong family traditions in areas with limited other job choices.

And I'm confident that if you ask any long-time fireman or police officer, they will tell you exactly that.

Funny you should say that.