What alignment is Baltar?

[Glyfair]

If this is evil, then what's neutral?

In this context, neutral is someone that isn't going to committ acts that will lead to destruction and mayhem, he won't necessarily go out of his way to prevent those acts.

 

[3d6]

If this is evil, then what's neutral?

Well, a neutral person, for example, doesn't take actions that predictably and directly lead to the deaths of thousands because he's pissed off. He might snap at people or throw a hissy fit instead. Perhaps throw paperweights as people.

 

[sckeener]

No, those are pretty blatantly evil acts, although the weapon is a much worse one.

The human race is on the brink of extinction. The Cylons have killed billions and are hunting the last few thousand survivors. Handing a

Spoiler

nuclear weapon

to an infiltrator among the survivors, it's crystal clear what that weapon will be used for: killing human life, and possibly genocide of the entire human race if possible. Just handing over a weapon to somebody isn't inherently evil, handing it over when you know they want to kill your entire species, have already killed 99.99% of it, and knowingly handing over an extremely powerful weapon to an enemy spy/saboteur among the survivors, is.

pish...so giving Drizzt a sword is an evil act? I think the Drow fit your last sentence as well.

Baltar loved/cared for that woman. For all he knew the she might have destroyed the weapon rather than let humans have it or she might do some other non-human life threating act with it...it was out of his hands...he didn't do the evil with the tool he handed her.

 

[sckeener]

Well, a neutral person, for example, doesn't take actions that predictably and directly lead to the deaths of thousands because he's pissed off. He might snap at people or throw a hissy fit instead. Perhaps throw paperweights as people.

he does not know it'll lead to deaths. and his state of mind doesn't matter at the time..

as you point out actions in the alignment scheme are what matter and handing an object over to someone is not an evil act...

the evil act is the cylon's and only the cylon's

 

[delericho]

Baltar makes a hash out the alignment system. He's clearly done evil, heck, he might be in service to evil, but he doesn't do evil for evil's sake. He's weak, not malign. And that distinction isn't well served by the alignment system.

To be Evil, all you need to do is routinely do evil. You don't need to do "evil for evil's sake".

And I disagree about Baltar making a hash of the alignment system - I think too often alignment is maligned for being a blunt measure rather than a fine one, but that's inevitable with only nine positions. (There's an argument for a passive/active alignment scale being added, which would more accurately reflect Baltar's position, but that's another argument. And Baltar's not that hard to pin down.)

 

[Ed_Laprade]

Pretend that Gaius is killing orc babies.

You see why I think that Baltar makes a hash out of alignment?

Quoted for truth.

 

[delericho]

Pretend that Gaius is killing orc babies.

You see why I think that Baltar makes a hash out of alignment?

Killing orc babies is Evil. Problem solved.

 

[Wolfwood2]

I'm truly baffled at how anyone could see Baltar as anything other than Chaotic Evil.

Saying he's evil doesn't make him any less complex of a character. It's not meant to undercut the internal dilemmas he struggles with or his occasional flashes of decency. Heck, it doesn't stop me from occasionally finding him quite likeable and even cheering for him. But if Baltar isn't evil, who is?

It's true that he rarely desires to harm for the sake of harming others, but that's a very high standard for evil! The fact is that whenever Baltar is faced with a decision, he always, ALWAYS acts in the way that will best satisfy his own desires. He has complete and callous disregard for all other beings, human or cyclon. He's a complete egomaniac, and his every action is motivated by what will be best for Baltar.

Never, at any time in the series, has he ever acted out of any sense of compassion or duty towards others. Even, especially, with the cylon Gina, he acted upon his own lusts and desires, projecting them upon the physical embodiment of the woman he is obsessed with. If he really gave a flying fig about her, he would never have had sex with her during that last encounter.

He is willing to lie, cheat, steal, murder, and harm others for his own desires.

How is this different from a neutral person? Neutral people are decent human beings! Neutral people recognize that other people aren't speedbumps in the road. Neutral people do their best to avoid harming other people.

How do neutral people differ from good people? Good people are willing to sacrifice themselves to help others, which I think you'll agree is a pretty high standard. Heck, of the major characters, I think only Bill Adama, Lee Adama, and President Roslin are Good. The others are a perfectly decent neutral.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Pretend that Gaius is killing orc babies.

You see why I think that Baltar makes a hash out of alignment?

I don't think of killing babies of any sentient race as Good.

 

[Wolfwood2]

I (as DM) think he's slipped into being evil (Neutral Evil, to be precise) and he thought he was Chaotic Neutral (the I Can Do Anything I Want alignment). And the discussion has come back to Baltar several times.

I already explained why Baltar is evil, but I should note thatI disagree with you and think he is chaotic evil.

Basically, Baltar is very much a creature of impulse. He's always acting on spur-of-the-moment desires and mad inspirations. Do you think he thought it through before giving Gina that nuclear bomb? Heck no, he did it in a fit of pique. Same thing when he decided to run for president. I know chaotic and lawful are about more than "obeys the law" but Baltar is so completely at the mercy of his own impulses I can't see him as anything but chaotic.