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D&D 5E What are the Roles now?

Well let's see...

(emphasis mine) How is that not saying that 4e is not a good game?
Are you actually saying you fail to grasp the distinction between "not a good game" and "not as good as"?

See, here's the thing. I can name probably five overall fantasy game systems that aren't D&D or essentially the exact same mechanics recapitulated (DW, WoD, Exalted, 13A, and...Warhammer) Add PF in, even though it's still basically 3e at its core, and that's six. Throw in maybe LL and S&W for the old school love. If 4e is so not-good-enough that it wouldn't even be in your top 10, is it any wonder that I think you think it's not good, since you apparently think it's worse than two games I don't even know about?

And as for your apparent repeated statements of the awesomeness of 4e for its style? I haven't seen you say that once during my participation in this thread. If you said it prior to my reading, I would have no idea. I have not, prior to this post, seen anything which suggested at the time that you had all that many positive thoughts about 4e.
Again, you were the one talking about "paying attention".




No, I'm not. I welcome criticism of 4e: its combat can be ponderous, its presentation was all wrong, it didn't think enough about balancing non-combat resources until far too late, and it occasionally didn't go far enough in slaying sacred cows (low-skill Fighters, for example). I don't welcome people saying it's a boardgame when it isn't, and I don't welcome people saying it is, and I quote, "not nearly as good as other games on the market."
For a lot of people it is not nearly as good as other games on the market.
 

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Are you actually saying you fail to grasp the distinction between "not a good game" and "not as good as"?


Again, you were the one talking about "paying attention".





For a lot of people it is not nearly as good as other games on the market.

I wouldn't look to 4th Edition to provide the same kind of D&D as any other edition. It was a great game for what it set out to do. I can't say what I think that is without upsetting people, though.
 

. As to whether they were "better" implemented I guess that would be determined by whether you thought the 4e roles were or were not always there. IMO the Defender fighter was much more restricted as well as generally worse than his less focused and more versatile brethren in 5e...
I've already demonstrated the straight jacket that this role enforcement placed on the fighter when it came to ranged combat
The traditional role of the D&D fighter since the early days was the tank or fighter wall who stood at the front of the party and traded melee damage while the cleric immediately behind him healed him, the wizard cast spells and the thief bled in the corner because he failed to surprise the monster.

Those traditional roles weren't exactly perfect. That the fighter could be a mediocre archer (or a good one, with double-specialization, later), didn't make him a better tank or a better class, just a less-focused one.

Well I think the issue I have with the design of the ranger being "the" archery class was... why does the Ranger get to be effective at both melee and ranged combat (along with more skills) but the supposed master of combat is almost totally ineffective in a fight that went ranged... like really... you're the combat class and all it takes is climbing or flying to neutralize you? That seems absurd in a world with the creatures of D&D...
Every class got to be basically effective in both melee and range - perhaps at the cost of a single feat or carrying the odd secondary weapon. The fighter, for instance, could use heavy thrown weapons perfectly effectively, and his core feature, Combat Challenge did technically work with them. Melee training made most classes able to do something in melee. It's actually one of the less baseless (if not very cogent) complaints about 4e that it was too 'easy' on PCs by allowing most of them to be at least somewhat effective in most situations, rather than having a more rock/papers/scissors/lizard/Spock kinda thing going, in which some or most of the party is sitting out many challenges.

The question isn't really does the fighter cover more concepts in one edition than another, but whether the edition covers more concepts (or, specifically, the concept you want) and does so well, not just for you, but for everyone at the table. The traditional - and 5e - fighter handle a fighter-wall tank well enough, and the 5e fighter can be an acceptable high-damage archer, outside of the earliest incarnations, the fighter also made an appallingly good TWFing quisinart of doom. OTOH, they fail when it comes to defending allies outside of narrow corridors and doorways, being party leaders or having anything much to do outside of combat. Look at 4e, and you can have an excellent defender, even when not given a convenient choke point, a killer archer with a lot of in-combat and out-of-combat options, a TWFing death-machine, and a capable battle-leader who contributes to the party meaningfully in mechanical ways. But you're looking at 3 distinct, balanced, fully-realized classes. There are simply more playable martial classes than in other editions, so each class can be devoted to a single role. And, since they use a common class structure, there isn't a huge barrier to entry when it comes to learning a new class, so your choice isn't constricted in that sense either.

There's no 'straightjacket' in this analysis - except the one you wear in your mind when you can't grasp the fact that the 4e archer needn't be of the fighter class.


But, that was in the brief period when roles were formalized, and class design was even-handed enough to let martial classes handle several of them.


5e, to get back to the original question is different. It doesn't have formal roles, just the informal traditional roles epitomized by the old-school Fighter, Cleric, Magic-user & Thief. So if a class fails to fill a traditional role, or fails to contribute adequately to the party, it can be put off to having it's own 'unique' role, and the campaign or party or player not being suited to that role. It's a reality, or at least an attitude, that lowers the bar for class design considerably. Which can be seen as a way of opening up 'design space' and leaving creativity unrestricted. Afterall, the DM can clean up any resulting balance or playability issues to whatever degree his group feels the need for.

EDIT: I would also cite this as one of those differences between designing with a role in mind vs. designing with the class in mind
Indeed. Design of classes in 4e initially took a 'grid filling' approach in which each class existed at the intersection of a Source with each of the Roles. Thus the class is designed with the nature of his abilities, Source - general concept like warrior (martial) or mage (arcane) for instance - and how those abilities will be used to contribute to the party in combat, Role in mind.

While I don't think role was ever discounted - magic-users for instance, were originally thought of as playing a combat role similar to artillery in wargames - it does seem like the traditional roles more or less evolved, while the concept of Class - more like that of Source, alone, in 4e - really drove the design, without contribution or other aspects of balance much taken into consideration, initially.


No one should be assigned a role. Everyone should be able to play their own role. That is role-playing.
Players aren't assigned roles in any version of D&D. Classes are. In most versions of the game a player who was committed to a certain concept might be limited in his choice of role, based on the classes that fit his concept.

For instance, a player who didn't want to play a caster in 4.0 (leaving the ambiguous Essentials Hunter out of it), but wanted to play a warrior of some sort, would be unable to choose the Controller role. He might get close with an archery Ranger or Brawling Fighter, but he'd primarily be a Striker or Defender, respectively. That's an unfortunate limitation on the player's choice based on the concept he wanted to play. Conversely, if he wanted to play a pious character, he could take up any of the 4 roles (Defender:Paladin, Leader:Cleric, Striker:Avenger, or Controller:Invoker).

Similarly, in 5e, if a character wanted to play a non-magical warrior-type as anything but a high-damage 'striker'-like role in combat, he's out of luck: the non-magical fighter, rogue, and barbarian archetypes are all fit pretty firmly in that category. But, if he wants to play a mage, he can be a stand-up tough-guy mage (Eldritch Knight), sneaky charlatan mage (Arcane Trickster), a healing 'leader'-ish mage (Bard), a blasting Sorcerer or Warlock or Invoker or a subtler school of Wizardry or more 'controller' take on those other arcane classes.

The devil is in the details. In earlier editions archery was viable at lower levels without huge investment, but paled in comparison to melee at higher levels if strengthbows weren't allowed (often the case) and/or archery specialisation, and there was the need for magic bows and arrows, and in some editions special metals. Archers who didn't specialise and equip themselves adequately were subpar as levels rose. Giving players the illusion that a particular option was viable when in practice it wasn't happened far too much in previous editions.
There has been a lot of that in a lot of classes throughout D&D's history. Some of it's intended: a player-chosen option can be set up to be attractive, conceptually, but under-performing mechanically, or to be effective at low level but languish at high, or vice versa - or quite a lot of other things. Early D&D groped around for balancing mechanisms and came up with a lot of them - weapon & armor proscriptions, varied exp tables, maximum levels, minimum stats, racial restrictions, magic item distributions, gotchya monsters, and direct DM intervention, just for a start.

What we, today, would call 'trap' choices were just another one of those early attempts at flogging some semblance of balance into the gaming experience.

That we're back to that in 5e might seem like lack of progress - but, there's a real resurgent interest in old-school, warts and all, right now, and 5e has made design choices accordingly.

Critical as I often am of 5e, I freely admit that I've had a blast running it, it's so much like running old-school D&D and other early games. It scratches that same itch as dusting off old books and paleo-gaming.

I personally am not a fan of archery specialisation for the fighter class, I admit, but that's in part because I would prefer something like an archer class where the player publically commits to that role. For instance I was content with the ranger as the archer class in 4e, as it could IMO be easily reskinned as a non woodsy archer for those who disliked some of the ranger flavour.

My nostalgia in relation to the fighter class is for the melee fighter, I admit.
The Archery combat style in 5e is a pretty solid commitment to being a great archer over a great melee type or high-AC tough guy. All you need is a finesse weapon or two to be a pretty darn good melee type, too, and your AC is likely to be pretty good, but the +2 to attacks says "archery first" pretty loudly in the context of bounded accuracy.
 
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I strongly disagree. If the world conditions itself on the party, that's not a sandbox.

If the party goes down to level X of the dungeon (or equivalent), they're going to find level X monsters there. They won't suddenly become level II monsters just because it's a second-level party. The PCs choose their own level of risk/reward.

I'm pretty sure Mr. Gygax would have said no, but sandbox may be a modern term and it can depart from his advice.

I have no reason to think that Gygax was running sandbox games. My impression, which could be wrong, is that he wouldn't have let you onto level X without beating level IX first. That's compatible with sandbox play but not a requirement.

I personally take it a little further. I think the players need a way to judge the risk of potential encounters before they encounter them. Similar to the general paradigm of deeper dungeon levels = more risk, I believe that the players need some kind of information like that in other environments (wilderness and urban). There are, of course, a number of ways to achieve this result.

When I have gamed with Ernie in his megadungeon, it has certainly been run as a sandbox and the group could go where they pleased. Of dangers great and small, there were rumors and warnings from NPCs, if we bothered to discover such information, or sometimes signs were there for anyone to find. Players were always free to ignore the information and do as they desired. Ernie runs games pretty much as his father ran them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxKIJTb3Hg
 

AFB but that's not how I understand Disengage.
You're correct - I was also AFB and mis-remembered.

Imaro raises a similar point to yours:

Disengage, while providing you with full movement in 5e doesn't stop your opponent from following you (and attacking you) either... I gues AD&D is slightly more stick here but it still doesn't seem like that great a difference.
I think the greater movement speed with disengage compared to fighting withdrawal is a meaningful difference - for instance, it means that you can keep pace with your archer and caster friends who are retreating, whereas in AD&D you have either get left behind or eat an attack.

A lot depends on overall encounter layout, tendencies in dispositions of forces, etc. In my AD&D experience, though, fighting withdrawal was not a widely-used option because it precluded attacking while not permitting serious movement.

I'm certainly not saying escaping in melee in AD&D is as easy as 5e... but there is precedence for getting out of melee with minimizing risk.
For me, the difference would be that the default effect of a fighting withdrawal is that you are still in melee but in a new position (eg closer to your friends, if they are holding their positions). Whereas the default effect of disengage is that you are out of melee. For instance, because of turn-by-turn resolution in 3E and later editions, if you disengage in 5e there is actually a point in the round where you are out of melee; whereas the more-or-less simultaneous resolution of AD&D means that a fighting withdrawal never actually takes you out of melee. You have to use the "retreat" option and soak the enemy's attack sequence (and without getting an attack oneself).

I'm going to disagree here, because of this sentence... "If characters or similar intelligent creatures are able
to single out an opponent or opponents, then the concerned figures will remain locked in melee until one side is dead or opts to attempt to break off the combat."


This tells me that characters and opponents who are intelligent enough to discern differences in their targets can choose who their attacks hit... If not what does the above mean and when does it come into play?
Intelligence is necessary to single out an opponent, but not sufficient. I think the issue of "able to single out" is meant to be resolved by the GM based on fictional positioning. A thief sneaking round the edge of a melee looking for a backstab opportunity would be a clear example. A band of orcs surrounding a PC taking point woud be another.

I don't think the intention is that, in general mass melee, opponents can easily be chosen. Otherwise, the random-determination rule would have no work to do.

Aren't most of the bonuses in AD&D "modest"? Serious question not much experience playing the game.
They vary. The free attack against a retreating PC isn't modest, in my experience. Especially because it is a full attack sequence, which can mean a whole round's worth of damage with no chance to retaliate (and because it's rear, no shield or DEX bonus to AC as well as the +2 to hit).

I'm unfamiliar with this rule... do you know exactly where in the AD&D books is it mentioned?
I haven't got my DMG ready to hand. I think the wilderness evasion rules, plus the rules on closing, identify 10' as the distance at which hostile parties become engaged in melee.
 

The average fighter was lucky to have a bonus at all in strength, dexterity, or constitution in Basic.
In Moldvay Basic the player of a fighter can lower INT or WIS to boost STR during PC creation (2 for 1), and 13 STR is enough for a +1 bonus. I think the average fighterin Moldvay Basic is almost certain to have a bonus in STR.
 

Roles have always existed in D&D, but the intention of one’s role , at least prior 4e, was not to limit them to combat only.
I'm not 100% sure what you mean by this, but if you're saying that 4e deliberately took a looser approach to non-combat resolution than earlier versions of D&D, then I agree.

the party role / class role took a major backseat to a defined combat role which the mechanics by design fully supported. So in 4e combat role bled into the mechanics, whereas in prior editions the mechanics bled into a role.

<snip>

When you define a combat role first. For instance, Leader – the powers designed ensure that you are able to assist your party during combat conditions (healing, saves, movement, additional attacks, morale ...etc) and protect yourself (armour proficiency, weapon proficiency, turn undead…etc). You select Leader-designed powers. Your role is forever defined as a Leader and you have the mechanics to back that up.

When you design mechanics first. Mechanics for a Cleric include Divine Spells, Armour Proficiency, Weapon Proficiency, Turn Undead…etc. The mechanics, as you can see are the same, but how you use them will determine your role in the party.
Your combat role is whatever it needs to be for a given combat – in some combats you may only heal, in others you might only fight and in others you may impose fear on your enemies and make them scatter. You may do the same in 4e, however there is no mechanical umbrella of Leader, that concept does not exist in the game.
There is an umbrella concept of "support character". Gygax in the PHB asserts that the druid, like the cleric, satisfies it. As it happens I think he is not entirely correct about that - the 1st ed AD&D druid is something of a cleric-MU hybrid (in 4e terms a leader-controller) - but the concept existed.

the 4e crowd which define their characters with combat roles and more than often, selects mechanics which cater to such roles, strengthening their abilities in those combat roles; as well as those who (b) do not define their characters via 4e combat roles, and prefer to select mechanics based on what they wish their character to do rather than to a specific designated combat role.
Two things.

First, I don't understand the contrast between "strengthening ability in a combat role" and "selecting mechanics based on what they wish their character to do". Presumably, when the player of the invoker in my 4e game choose Invoked Devastation as a feat, that was because he wanted to increase the area of effect of his AoE powers - so he was selecting based on what h wished his character could do, and in that particular case he was strengthening his ability in his combat role. When he chose Fey feats so that he could teleport at will, that was also based on what he wanted his character to be able to do (in particular, escape from grapples and similar traps), but it wasn't strengthening his control abilities.

Second, I don't think that "the 4e crowd" define their characters by combat role. Maybe some 4e players do, but plenty don't. In my 4e game the players define their characters by what they aspire to have them do. This includes abilities related to combat function, and non-combat function, and those combat functions sometimes but not always overlap with the class's notional combat role.

I wouldn't look to 4th Edition to provide the same kind of D&D as any other edition.
That is a biographical fact about you. Without knowing exactly what you are looking for from D&D, it's not clear to me what it tells us about D&D.

What I look for from D&D is an experience that resembles the promise of Moldvay Basic's foreword: freeing the oppressed kingdom from the dragon tyrant, using the sword gifted by the mysterious hermit. Of editions of D&D, the one that has done the best job of giving me that sort of experience is 4e, mostly because it completely divorces the game's mechanics (PC build mechanics, XP mechanics, treasure apportionment mechanics) from it's Gygaxian dungeoneering roots.

In Gygaxian D&D, a paladin has the tropes of a paladin, but plays as a mercenary - s/he is trawling through dungeons earning XP by hauling out gold. In 4e, the tropes are retained (and not just for the paladin, but for the cleric, the melee fighter, and the wizard - the ranger and thief are more distant cousins of their AD&D equivalents) but they are liberated from the distorting context of Gygaxian D&D play.

For me, that is an improvement. But it is mostly orthogonal to the question of combat roles.
 

If you have a charmed NPC, how does that count as control vs any other encounter?

<snip>

once the charming has happened, you're not doing any sort of control for any other encounter thereafter.
Because you have an extra body to use as a blocker, a combatant etc. Hence it is like a summoning ability.

It's not summoning because you didn't summon anything. You were dependent on a charmable creature being there.
In the typical AD&D or Basic D&D or OD&D dungeon, there is not a shortage of NPCs/creatures to charm.

The reason it resembles a summoning effect is because it gives you an extra body to deploy. An extra body that can block, attack etc. Which is a classic control function. (I've never seen anyone doubt that 4e's characterisation of summoning as a battlefield control effect is in error.)

You simply have an extra body to help you out, in a myriad of ways.
Yes. That is battlefield control. That is why Charm Person resembles a combination of anti-personnel (you take out an enemy NPC) plus summoning (you have an extra body to do things for you). It's a super-powerful ability, and was always regarded as such (trolls and ochre jellies were the two recommended targets for Control Monster, the first because it regenerates and the second because of its immunities).

You're not actually prohibiting or forcing (key requirements of controlling) the enemies in any way. All you're doing is giving them another target to hit (if they choose), and another body to attack them.
When you charm a target you are prohibiting or forcing them.

When you get them to melee another enemy you are prohibiting or forcing that enemy, because they can't cast spells without risk of interruption, can't withdraw from melee without taking a brutal free attack, etc.

After you charmed your target, you are doing absolutely zero control over any enemies you happen to run into from that point on. You're not changing the environment to affect their movement, you're not forcing or coercing them to do anything---nada.

<snip>

A controller does things like grease, hold person, wall of X, sleep, evard tentacles, stone to mud, etc.
What is the difference between Evard's Black Tentacles and having a charmee attack an enemy in melee? None. Charmed NPCs can grapple too. That's why summoning is characterised as a species of control.

I'm beginning to think you haven't even been around in the 70s and early 80s, nor actually read any of those magazines.
Then you're wrong.

On Gandalf as a cleric, I refer you to Lewis Pulsipher in his early White Dwarf article on class design. If you look at the article I assume you are referring to (Gandalf as 5th level MU in Dragon number 5), it makes a pretty good case for Gandalf as a druid (Produce Flame, Call Lightning - used outdoors on Weathertop, Charm Mammal, etc). This case is only strengthened with the sun-oriented, anti-Undead spells that druids get in UA and which MUs completely lack.

A Basic or AD&D MU plays nothing like Gandalf at any level. No melee. No combat leadership (unlike Gandalf in Minas Tirith). Lots of artillery (which Gandalf lacks) and overt enchantments and conjurations (which Gandalf mostly lacks) and flying and teleportation (which Gandalf completely lacks).
 

Then you're wrong.
On Gandalf as a cleric, I refer you to Lewis Pulsipher in his early White Dwarf article on class design. If you look at the article I assume you are referring to (Gandalf as 5th level MU in Dragon number 5), it makes a pretty good case for Gandalf as a druid (Produce Flame, Call Lightning - used outdoors on Weathertop, Charm Mammal, etc). This case is only strengthened with the sun-oriented, anti-Undead spells that druids get in UA and which MUs completely lack
I completely respect your opinion on the ability to play Gandalf as a cleric or druid or whatever. But this is a great example of how your experiences and past seem to be trapped and isolated in a bubble.

You said "As was well discussed in the magazines of the time, you also didn't play a magic-user to play a Gandalf-like character. Gandalf was more often modelled as a cleric" and now you are referencing a single item from White Dwarf. I wouldn't be surprised that with enough digging you could find a stray bit of support somewhere in Dragon. But the presence of "Gandalf as wizard" was ubiquitous. Just look at all the "wizard/ magic-user" minis from that time period. Even today an absurd percentage of them are blatantly based on Gandalf. With the mass produced options today there are a lot of alternatives, but in the 70s and 80s if it didn't look like Gandalf it was pretty likely it looked like Merlin. (And yes, you can cherry-pick exceptions. If you look at a lot of them , the trend will strongly be there)

You assessment is cool. In my group your would get a lot of credit for playing a Gandalf inspired cleric, and for clinging more closely to the LotR narrative as strict inspiration. I don't dispute that merits of that model as an interesting take.

But you turn around and try to present this as the truism of how the game was intended, designed, and embraced by the community as a whole. And then you cherry pick examples to make your case. That is just absurd. And it makes you look closed minded and oblivious to the experiences and input of a whole lot of other people.

Just step back and think about it. Are you just typing crap to see how much you can snowjob people? If so then by all means, knock yourself out. But if you want to engage in conversations and make people understand you and maybe even get a new thought from others, then you really need to engage from a perspective that is outside your bubble.

I didn't get really heavily playing until the 80s myself. But the wizard = Gandalf or Merlin expectation was assumed to be true early on. Yes, people would play away from that type quite by design, all the time. But the foundation was well understood.

Your comments on the differences between the mechanics and narrative are accepted without dispute from me. But the implication that Gandalf *could* have charmed someone was never a stretch. No one ever felt that an elf or archer could ONLY do those things that Legolas did and no one felt that a wizard could only do the things that Gandalf did. (Halfings tended to be vastly better thieves in D&D than Biblo, and Frodo was not really a thief at all). So the players "as Gandalf" would do the cool thing that they wanted Gandalf to do. And they would not get hung up on "Hey, Gandalf never actually did that." Pretty soon Fireball is the go-to spell. The perception over just a few months of play evolves from Gandalf could have done this to my Gandalf inspired magic-user does this all the time. The disconnect is there, and yet the understanding and satisfaction with that understanding and enjoyment of the game and *being Gandalf* was commonplace.

If you want to communicate with people outside your bubble, you should start by recognizing there is a lot of reality outside your bubble.
 
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