What are your beefs with the d20 system?

[Paul_Klein]

My group and I have been talking about OUR beefs with the d20 system in general. Some specific stuff like Whirlwind Attack and Mobility being pretty worthless feats to general stuff like attacks of opportunities being too clunky (in our opinion).

So, what are your beefs?

 

[pogre]

The learning curve for new players. Frankly, there are too many rules. Teaching someone their options in combat is one of the main hurdles. The huge level of magic is a beef that I deal with - I think a lot of people tone down the magic in D&D.

Still, it is far superior to 2nd edition in nearly every way.

 

[BrooklynKnight]

The learning curve for new players. Frankly, there are too many rules. Teaching someone their options in combat is one of the main hurdles. The huge level of magic is a beef that I deal with - I think a lot of people tone down the magic in D&D.

Still, it is far superior to 2nd edition in nearly every way.

I'm sorry, I disagree. It is not your place as a DM to tell a player his EVERY available option in combat. They must use their imagination for that.

Your job as DM is to tell them the result of their actions and guide the plot and story.

Combat is 1d20 + BAB + Various Bonuses VS. AC

Simple.

If they want to know what their options are, open the PHB to the combat chapter, and hand it to them. If they arent intelligent enough to read (well unless they are young, and i mean under 10 or so), then they...bleh i'll stop there, too off topic, i apologize.

Ahem.
One rule for combat, Its listed above. If someone wants to know what their options are, let them play Q&A. The basic "can I do this? What if I do that?" scenario where they attempt it and learn from their mistakes. The game is FAR more fun that way.

 

[Mark]

Hi Paul! Been missing you at the Chicago Gamedays. You'll have to make it out to some of the future ones!

I have to agree with pogre about the learning curve. The DM is the primary facilitator to a smooth game, including helping players, new and old, become more familiar with the rules. I am not so sure that less rules is the answer, so much as a more coordinated effort in each and every product to help smooth game play overall. It has improved with each new edition but I feel that more can be done on a product by product basis to help DMs in that role as facilitator of the game.

That's what Creative Mountain Games tries to do anyway.

So no individual beefs from me, per se, but more of a general one, aimed wide at all products rather than specifically focused on a single or few game mechanics.

 

[clark411]

I dislike the d20. Which kind of makes me ask why I'm here. ^_^

In seriousness, even with taking ten and taking twenty, I dislike the idea that someone with no experience (and max ranks) can get 5-25 on a skill check, while a far more experienced person (lets say oh 6th) can get 10-30 on that same check, barring investments in feats etc. The range has altered in such a minor way, especially in relation to the expectations placed on characters in other arenas (level 1 guy fights 2 Goblins.. a level 6 guy can handle Many Goblins).

 

[Steverooo]

So, what are your beefs?

First of all, no rules system will EVER be perfect. Still, 3.5e could be more to my tastes... Now note that this thread is about "What are your beefs", not "Let's argue about'em", so I will simply offer MY opinions, and not post to the thread to defend them against attacks... (So don't bother, eh? Just IMHO, food for thought, etc.)

1) Non-Archetypeal Archetypes - It often seems to me that the classes don't fit the archetypes that they're supposed to represent very well... In every case, this is a rules issue. It relates to several of the below... (Of course, this is subjective. Maybe the classes fit your archetypes, better.) I would prefer to see archetypes be... well, archetypal!

2) Many classes don't really seem to have a "Role", or "Job" - The Ranger seems to be the greatest example of role confusion. (In that case, however, it is often a disagreement about WHAT his role should be!) 3.5e is working on this... (but they also seem to keep redefining the roles)!

3) Characters don't have the skills/abilities needed to do their jobs (as *I* see them, anyway!) - A Fighter, *I* would think, would be the best Bodyguard, yet (due to not having Profession as a Class Skill), he can't take Profession (Bodyguard) and earn pay as one, for some odd reason... The supposedly-woodswise Ranger will always be falling out of trees (should he try to use them for cover) due to low Ranks in Cross-Class Balance (same for crossing ice - DC:15), and can't earn a living as a Guide, Hunter, etc. (even though that's "supposed" to be his role) unless he takes ranks in those Professions. While I realize that Professions are basically added for Commoners, Experts, etc., I would like to see Fighters get the ability to hire out as Bodyguards, FOR FREE, at first level, and Siege Artillerists at some higher level, or AT LEAST see their skill points go up, and add these options to the list!

4) PCs are treated as unknowledgable - This always irks me, in a game... *I* am not an adventurer, yet I constantly run into things that *I* can do that my PCs can't (regardless of the skill I choose)... and in some cases, there is no rule for doing it in the game! Please, please, please, GMs, don't treat my characters as know-nothing idiots! If they've lived in this world for 120 years, you'd think they could handle the daily challenges! (To tie a firm knot is DC:15 Rope Use? MOST PCs can't make that, even if they take 10! Without a Rank of Rope Use skill, only Elves & Halflings with a 20 Dex even have a CHANCE, at first level)! Generally, how important is tying a knot to your game, anyway? Having a PC die because no one in the entire party can properly tie the rope to the grapnel is fun for nobody but Killer DMs.

5) Magic trumps skills - Not too bad if you're a Wizard, I guess, but it stinks if you're a Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, or Rogue. Need a good jumper? Don't go to the Rogue with Jump maxed out and a 20 Str... Find a first level Wizard with the Jump spell! I would like to see a limit to magic of 3 Ranks +1 Rank/Level, the same as a Maxed-out Class Skill.

6) Prestige classes trump regular ones - Why aren't the regular classes as powerful as the Prestige classes, so that you have to trade one thing to get something else?

7) Inept beginners - Most DCs are 15+... First level PCs with their skills maxed have 4 Ranks, and probably +2 for stats, and barely succeed more often than they fail with their PRIMARY skills! With skills in which they've taken no Ranks, they fail about three times as often as they succeed! In my experience, it takes to level 10+ for a PC to become what I consider "competent", yet they are called a "Fighter" (or whatever) at level one... Don't call my PC a "Hero" when most eighth grade boy scouts can beat them in a contest - at pretty much ANYTHING non-magical!

8) Drains - The whole concept of Energy Level & Ability Drains just doesn't sit well with me... You earn a level, then run into an undead, and lose it, again... YMMV, but, again, this is irksome, to me. (At least there's Restoration...) This, I would just as soon see removed from the game.

9) Spellcraft vs. Knowledge (Arcana) - Why do both of these skills exist? Knowledge of spells, and how to craft them, is the epitomy of Arcana, seems to me... With 3e->3.5e's removal of skills, I am surprised that this (and Rope Use) survived!

10) Y'Call that better? - Some "fixes" shouldn't have been fixed! While I argued that Wizards should be able to identify what a potion is, I think REMOVING that ability from the Alchemy skill was a mistake. An alchemist (or spellcaster who misses their Spellcraft - or Knowledge (Arcana) - roll) should be able to analyze the potion, as well.

11) Ability DOWNgrades! - Since 1e, a Thief/Rogue has been able to hide by dressing appropriately (dark clothing, lampblack, etc). Now, he needs cover or concealment to hide... and it's not always THERE. The much-maligned Rangers' Camouflage & Hide in Plain Sight abilities used to be part of Hide, for anyone who had it. Breaking them out of the skill makes Hide much, much less useful. I greatly prefer the old way!

12) Prestige classes aren't - Prestigous, that is... I prefer the 1e version... Any Fighter (including Paladins and Rangers) who did great deeds for the country could be inducted into the Knights of the Hart (they gained no abilities, IIRC, but the honor and title were prestigious)! I would like to see Prestige Classes be something GMs could bestow upon PCs WITHOUT requiring a level from them... YMMV.

13) Adaptability & Customization - Too little of it. I don't like the way that Multiclassing is run, and would like to see a method where PCs can get new abilities WITHOUT leaving their class(es).

14) Multiclass for life! - I would prefer to see the above implemented, and once a PC becomes a Fighter/Wizard/Rogue, they continue taking levels in them, forever. Together, the two would allow customization to get (say) a Trapwise Ranger, without multiclassing Rogue for one level.

15) Deity-related powers! - Why would a Paladin or Cleric of Tulkas, the Wrestler, be at all like a Paladin or Cleric of Arda, Queen of the Stars? Each should have a base of abilities common to all, but each should have their own powers, relating to who/what they worship... Remember, a Druid is "just" a special, Nature-oriented version of the Cleric!

16) Invisibility - In 1e, you took a -4 to attack an invisible opponent... In 3.5e, you need Spot DC:20 to know he's out there (somewhere!), and DC:40+ to know where he is... Then attack, then roll miss chance (then re-roll, with Blind-fight, which doesn't help you find where he is, in the first place), then roll, again, for a threatened critical... All this, for a second or third level spell? Without Skill Focus & Alertness, we're talking a roll of 20 by a typical PC (+2 Wis) of 15th level (if Spot's a Class Skill), or 30th (otherwise). Boy! That 2nd level spell is pretty powerful, eh?

17) Low-level magic does the otherwise impossible, and with ease! - Yes, yes, yes, there is See Invisible, IF you have it, and it's low level, too (IF you can cast spells... of the right type). See #5, again! I would really prefer to go back to the old "Invisibility gives your opponents a -4 to hit you, and Blind-fight halves all penalties due to darkness/blidness/etc." It was simple, easy, and (IMHO) better. The current version of Invisibility is just too powerful.

18) Pseudo-Feats - I have always hated these... Please get rid of them, all together! If a Ranger wants Improved Precise Shot, or a Monk Deflect Arrows, then give them bonus Feats, and let them meet the requirements, or just give'm the Feats straight up, like Track & Endurance. Don't be half-way about it. If it works, it works in any armor, if the Feat normally does (Obviously, this doesn't apply to the Monk's Non-Feat AC Bonus, nor the Barbarian's Non-Feat Movement rate increase, nor...

19) "Skill-Boosters" that shouldn't be - Cloak and Boots of Elvenkind shouldn't be skill-booster items, at all. (See my thread on the "Rules" board for the arguements why, if you care.) Now, what price is the function of the item worth, is the question?

20) Power-Up - I would like to see ALL the PC Classes get a general power-up, increase skill points all around, add racial background skill (a 120+ year old Elf or Dwarf has fewer skills than a 15 year old Human? What've they been DOING all those years!? I'm working on an article, for the answer to this one!) I would like to see a NEW ability granted to EVERY Class at EVERY level, much as the current Monk/Druid, now... No more "empty levels"!

21) Savings Throws - Remove the +2 at first level. No class gets more than +1/level. Then, standardize the saves for all classes... Everybody gets a "Good", "Average", and "Bad" save. These advance like BAB. Classes like Druid/Monk with three good saves have to pay a higher cost.

22) More generalized feats - You want one extra attack/round, always? You need Two-Weapon Fighting, Point-Blank Shot (why?), and Rapid Shot... You want to not suffer Attacks of Opportunity when attacking unarmed? Well, let's see... You need Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Power Attack (why?), Improved Sunder, Combat Expertise (why?), and Improved Disarm (Shew! I THINK that's all!) Of course, you'll get some "extra" abilities, besides avoiding AoO, as well, but you may not have wanted those... I'd like to see some more generalized Feats like: Extra Attack - you get one extra attack, with any weapon you're using, at your highest BAB. or: Unarmed Attacker - When attacking unarmed, you never provoke attacks of opportunity. Etc.

23) How does this affect CRs? - CRs given are for PCs with their equipment. What if they're shipwrecked, and lose it? How does that affect their CRs? You can't generally fight naked what you can take when well-equipped!

I'm sure there are about a thousand other things I could argue (Why can very experienced Monks speak with anything, while Druids hafta cast a spell to talk to animals? If it doesn't ruin the game for the monk, why the Druid?), but I'll stop here...

Next!

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

The multiclassing rules are a little inelegant, and lead to situations in which they can either be hideously abused, or they can illogically restrain a character.

The ECL system frequently makes monstrous PCs dramatically underpowered for their effective level, especially if they have several hit dice.

D&D in particular has many classes with "empty" levels that don't provide a specific mechanical benefit other than progression in statistics-- like increased BAB, saves, HD, and skills. Or spells. This makes PrCs far more desirable than base classes. 3.5 improved considerably on this, but still leaves room for improvement. d20 Modern is far better in this regard.

 

[Steverooo]

Amen to most of that!

 

[Tsyr]

My only comment is 12... Those aren't classes your talking about, and never should be. In most cases, a prestige class does not equal a prestigeous order... It's just a class members of that order can take if they choose to. Exceptions do, of course, exist, such as in OA where most prestige classes actually are very specialized schools of training.

 

[Thresher]

One of the most annoying things is the lack of consistancy with things like monsters and NPC's which can be pretty clunky to throw together and much less on the fly, so you end up using book critters which have some really borked CR's and damn its hard to apply them to something like a Pc even with Sav-Species.
Wotc really needs to have some sort of 'overmind' to ensure consistancy with products as its very frustrating to pick over the rules and the amount of contradictions and misinterpretations is both long and very tiresome. While thats not to say some of it is well written but theres a lot of excetement mixed in.

D20 falls apart over level 20 with the ELHB, the amount of houseruling to keep it on its feet is draining, mostly on time but it can also dampen the enthusiasm considerably and Im surprised its not just called L20
Now, I like a game to go for a long period of time, years, months and days but it seems to be written mostly for people who like a 'throw together' game to blaze away over half a dozen game sessions. Having it die in the arse because characters hit a certain level is, to be blunt, crap, which is why I dont like game systems with 'levels'. But I can live with a level system as long as it holds together over time, D20 dosnt, it comes off the wheels.

Multiclassing, Im sure theres enough of us who've been brought to tears having to put up with it.
"But if we just let blah class advance without check it'll be 'unbalenced'"
Balance is a very relative thing and throwing crocked PRC's like Mystic Theurge's, Arcane knights and the like is a pretty piss poor way of propping up something that wobbly.
For some of us, we're lucky to get 3-4 players at the table at any one time, we need some versitility to overcome obstacles, but when you add any caster class to anything else you'll soon find youre unable to defeat an enemy of their supposed 'CR' so you end up 'gimped' and unable to advance.
So we end up with the basics, the fighter, the wiz and the cleric (or variations thereof) and each party starts to look much the same as the last one and we suffer for the lack of a rogue or anything else desperatly, because there isnt a warm body to fill it.
Sure, you can bog it out with a cohort, but its just another sheet of paper to keep track of and never the same as playing a multi-class.

But hey, who's listening and its unlikely to be fixed so Ive probably just wasted 3mins of my life and Im sorry to have wasted yours for reading