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D&D 4E What Aspects of 4E Made It into 5E?

Seriously, though, 5e had kinda the right idea: include options for both TotM and grid play. It just didn't do either very well, mainly because it was /also/ harkening back to the classic game, so put everything in feet, which isn't optimal for either. TotM's simpler with range categories like 'close' vs 'distant' & arbitrary/random means of determining who's in a given AE, without much considering exact units of measure. Grids are simpler when counting squares 1:1, and not worrying about 'real' distances.
There's a solution to this that would readily work: just shrink the squares from 5 feet down to 3, and measure everything in yards. And metric conversions will be far more sane (looking at you, D20 Star Wars)

As a bonus, it'll hearken back to 1e, which talked about using 3 1/3 foot squares.
 

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There's a solution to this that would readily work: just shrink the squares from 5 feet down to 3, and measure everything in yards. And metric conversions will be far more sane (looking at you, D20 Star Wars)
Sorta a Halfling scale? Normal characters like gnomes and halflings take up one square, freakishly huge ones like humans & orcs, 4? Or would a 'square' be 3x3x6, like a GURPS 'people tube' hex?

But, seriously, if you're stating everything in real units of measure - m, in, ft, yds, plank lengths, parsecs, furlongs, whatever - you're not making life easy on yourself on either a grid or TotM.

As a bonus, it'll hearken back to 1e, which talked about using 3 1/3 foot squares.
Definitely don't recall that. Lot's of 10' squares from dungeon maps. ;)
 

I've always used grids when playing D&D, so the fact that grids were required in 4e didn't bother me - if there were a rule FORBIDDING the use of grids that WOULD bother me! Although I had some issues with the game (mostly tied to "fluff" changes), game mechanics weren't really one of them. I bought every book until the "Essentials" line came out, which I considered to be edition 4.5 (and I don't buy .5 editions). I'm glad they kept the Feywild and the Shadowfell for 5e (and are bringing back the Raven Queen and the Shadar-Kai). Dragonborn I like, Tieflings are o.k if they create a Demon-related PC race to balance the fact that Tieflings are now Devil-only, and the Eladrin... well, looks like no 2e-style Eladrin in 5e, BUT I like the seasonal variants they are putting in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, so I'll live. Wouldn't mind seeing more 4e goodies in 5e, since I got my Great Wheel back, my biggest beef with 4e.
 


While I'm fine using a grid (or hex) or not, one thing I was rather surprised to find is that squares (or rather cubes) snapping to a grid, are a lot easier to visualize relative positioning with ("who's caught in the blast?" type questions) than are distances in feet & a wider variety of geometric shapes, or hexes once you get into three dimensions (since cubes tessellate space, and dodecahedrons don't), especially if you're not counting diagonals differently, it gets /very/ simple.

It's not even the same line. ;P

Seriously, though, 5e had kinda the right idea: include options for both TotM and grid play. It just didn't do either very well, mainly because it was /also/ harkening back to the classic game, so put everything in feet, which isn't optimal for either. TotM's simpler with range categories like 'close' vs 'distant' & arbitrary/random means of determining who's in a given AE, without much considering exact units of measure. Grids are simpler when counting squares 1:1, and not worrying about 'real' distances.

When we play (TotM), we state distances in terms of moves instead of feet. "The charging orcs are two moves straight ahead. The thief is behind the rest of the group by a move, and the archers are 4 moves to your right." This can get a bit messy with characters with a movement distance larger than 30', but we usually just assume that they move 1.5 moves and round in favor of the moving character when necessary. Playing Theatre of the Mind can require a fair amount of trust between players and DM.
 

Playing Theatre of the Mind can require a fair amount of trust between players and DM.

The level of negotiation and trust required to do TotM is one of the main reasons 3e (and even 2e Combat and Tactics!) promoted using the grid in the first place. Circle of life and all that. :)
 

The level of negotiation and trust required to do TotM is one of the main reasons 3e (and even 2e Combat and Tactics!) promoted using the grid in the first place. Circle of life and all that. :)

I am sure that the level of ambiguity that Theatre of the Mind can create annoys some players and DMs to no end. However, it can be advantageous to dramatic action. If a player has an whacky and exciting plan involving a chicken, a banister, and a cooking pot, the details about how far away each of those items might be can be easily molded if their location hasn't already been pinned down. I find that in Theatre of the Mind its much easier for me as the DM to say "Yes." New players (and sometimes seasoned ones) often need a little coaxing. Instead of asking, "How far away is that chicken, and what's the distance between the chicken and the banister?" They should say, "I have this plan involving a chicken, a banister, and a cooking pot. It goes something like this, . . . . . and the pot with the chicken ends up here! Is that possible?" The first set of questions restricts what might happen later. The second set allows the DM to simply say "yes" to a fun scene and only at that point decide the exact locations of said chicken, banister, and pot.
 

When we play (TotM), we state distances in terms of moves instead of feet. This can get a bit messy with characters with a movement distance larger than 30', but we usually just assume that they move 1.5 moves and round in favor of the moving character when necessary.
Perfectly workable. You loose some of the granularity of feet, but everything's given in increments of 5 or 10 ft anyway, so it's hardly a meaningful loss.
Playing Theatre of the Mind can require a fair amount of trust between players and DM.
Playing D&D, especially 0D&D/1e/5e, requires a considerable amount of trust in the DM, already. The gp should have "In DM We Trust" on one side.

I am sure that the level of ambiguity that Theatre of the Mind can create annoys some players and DMs to no end. However, it can be advantageous to dramatic action. If a player has an whacky and exciting plan involving a chicken, a banister, and a cooking pot, the details about how far away each of those items might be can be easily molded if their location hasn't already been pinned down.
Nod. That shades into the 'story now' theories that spawn huge threads, but yeah, a good DM (or player) can leverage ambiguity.
I find that in Theatre of the Mind its much easier for me as the DM to say "Yes."
I find it's easier to say 'no' to avoid complicating the scene you're trying to hold in your head, too. :shrug: I ran TotM a lot for a good 10 years. (There was a period in the 90s when there was just no where for the groups I gamed with to run that actually had any kind of useable play surface, the last FLGS with table space closed down in late 80s, so the decade was bereft that way, and we were mostly college kids with little space at home.) It definitely pulls the GM (mind, this was mostly Storyteller & Hero, the latter being more 'grid dependent' by design than any ed of D&D ever contemplated being) towards simplified combats with less terrain, fewer options, and fewer enemies (1 being ideal - and, not coincidentally, I think, 5e encounter guidelines are more dependable when the party has numeric superiority).
New players (and sometimes seasoned ones) often need a little coaxing. Instead of asking, "How far away is that chicken, and what's the distance between the chicken and the banister?"
That's yer seasoned player, right there. ;) You can tell the high-player-skill/CaW types by the way they ask you seemingly stupid questions cagily, then spring an action on you based on them. ;) Annoying...
They should say, "I have this plan involving a chicken, a banister, and a cooking pot. It goes something like this, . . . . . and the pot with the chicken ends up here! Is that possible?" The first set of questions restricts what might happen later. The second set allows the DM to simply say "yes" to a fun scene and only at that point decide the exact locations of said chicken, banister, and pot.
Agreed, but breaking some players of habits learned in even semi-adversarial campaigns requires some patience. It's nice if you also have the trusting/enthusiastic player, so the cynical ones can see harebrained schemes working as the world subtly shifts in their favor.
 
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That's yer seasoned player, right there. ;) You can tell the high-player-skill/CaW types by the way they ask you seemingly stupid questions cagily, then spring an action on you based on them. ;) Annoying... Agreed, but breaking some players of habits learned in even semi-adversarial campaigns requires some patience. It's nice if you also have the trusting/enthusiastic player, so the cynical ones can see harebrained schemes working as the world subtly shifts in their favor.

Currently, I have a player who participates in another game which has a much more adversarial style. (Its fun as well; I've also played with that DM.) I can often tell when the player has recently roleplayed with the other group because he starts asking off the wall questions. I have learned to simply ask, "Before I answer your questions, what are you hoping to accomplish here?" That usually works.
 

Currently, I have a player who participates in another game which has a much more adversarial style. (Its fun as well; I've also played with that DM.) I can often tell when the player has recently roleplayed with the other group because he starts asking off the wall questions. I have learned to simply ask, "Before I answer your questions, what are you hoping to accomplish here?" That usually works.
Yep, the DM in the one semi-regular campaign I still get to play in says "wait, what is it you're really trying to do?" a lot. She gets really exasperated by the probing, old-school-adversarial-style questions. "How high is the ceiling?" is a running gag, now.
 

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