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D&D 4E What Aspects of 4E Made It into 5E?

Hussar

Legend
I am amused by this theorycrafting.

4E failed. It did so because it forgot to be a role-playing game first and foremost.

I loved the tactical battle game, but in the end, we dropped 4E because the combats took so much time there wasn't enough energy and focus left for the actual RPG experience.

I imagine this was the same for you too, yet somehow you keep discussing as if the game wasn't fundamentally a failure.

TLDR it was more interesting when the topic was what bits made it into 5E.

Just as a point, when you say failure, you mean sales failure right? Of course, by that metric, virtually every single RPG on the market, other than D&D, was and is a failure. Granted, there are exceptions, but, by and large, every single RPG is an economic failure, if we're insisting on the Core Brand metric.
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
Just as a point, when you say failure, you mean sales failure right? Of course, by that metric, virtually every single RPG on the market, other than D&D, was and is a failure. Granted, there are exceptions, but, by and large, every single RPG is an economic failure, if we're insisting on the Core Brand metric.
Do you have a point other than desperately trying to relativize away the deficiencies of 4E?

Lots of games are considered successes. Some of which are even obscure and definitely not in WotC's financial league. MERP. WEG Star Wars. Delta Green. [[Add your own example here]].

4E isn't one of them.

But that wasn't my point. My point was: why bury yourself in niggly details (that mostly come down to speculation at the end of the day) when the reason is: 4E failed as a rpg, which is *the* one job a rpg cannot be allowed to fail at. It really is that simple.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Do you have a point other than desperately trying to relativize away the deficiencies of 4E?

Lots of games are considered successes. Some of which are even obscure and definitely not in WotC's financial league. MERP. WEG Star Wars. Delta Green. [[Add your own example here]].

4E isn't one of them.

But that wasn't my point. My point was: why bury yourself in niggly details (that mostly come down to speculation at the end of the day) when the reason is: 4E failed as a rpg, which is *the* one job a rpg cannot be allowed to fail at. It really is that simple.

I think I am one of the last D6 players left. Have not played it for a few years but my current players like it and I want to play it soon as 5E has fizzled for us (other reasons non D&D related).
 

thorgrit

Explorer
I haven't seen anybody mention exceptions-based rule design yet. That was one of the big things I noticed in 4e, a list of general rules, and nearly everything of the game called itself out as a more specific exception to an earlier general rule. Such that it functioned more like a LEGO kit than modeling clay. When you tinker to change or houserule something, it's easier to see what later systems that counted on it would be affected.

I can't think of specific examples, but it seemed like in 3e there were a lot of specific subsystems that didn't seem related to each other, and it was sometimes difficult to resolve RAW when they interacted with each other. I haven't played any earlier editions, but I can only assume they were similar or "worse".

5e feels like it's just as deliberately a cascade of smaller rules like 4e was.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Yes, and respectfully, I disagree on this point.

To my perception, they are identical in almost every way that matters, and their differences mostly revolve around obscure corner-case scenarios that are unlikely to ever arise during gameplay. As such, I consider recovery Hit Dice to be an aspect of 4E which made it into 5E virtually unaltered. YMMV, obviously.

Yep our mileages vary when you gloss over the One Humongous Change :) (not even a sarcastic smiley, since I cannot muster anything else than utter bafflement at this stage)

Healing surges are no longer connected to virtually every source of healing in the game. That's a complete game-changer to me.

Even if everything else was completely identical, this change alone makes everything completely different.

As soon as the first party member ran out of surges, you simply stopped adventuring for the day. Why would you ever move on gimped of perhaps your most powerful ability (the ability to recover from damage). This felt utterly artificial. The squishy skulkers (warlocks, rangers & co) must now emerge to take on a few hits. Why? To spread the damage evenly among all party members. This also felt utterly artificial.

I never understood the rule - why was it there, when it added no fun and only took it away? I think that on some theoretical level the idea was that combats would become fun and exciting when you've run out of surges, and thus are down to the hit points themselves. But since D&D is inherently chaotic and you can never be assured of not getting in trouble, this never made sense to us. There was never an incentive big enough to not simply sleep on it to get back your surges.

Just so you know, it's not that I'm pouring hate on the specific 4E mechanism. I've even added 4E-style healing in the form of one-use magic items (moonstones) that let you spend hit dice as an action (zero in bright light, one in dim light, two in darkness).

The sea change is that this is now very much the exception instead of very much being the rule (odd daily powers notwithstanding).

That's not a huge change. That's a OMGBBQWTF level change! :lol:
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Yep our mileages vary when you gloss over the One Humongous Change :) (not even a sarcastic smiley, since I cannot muster anything else than utter bafflement at this stage)

Healing surges are no longer connected to virtually every source of healing in the game. That's a complete game-changer to me.

Even if everything else was completely identical, this change alone makes everything completely different.

As soon as the first party member ran out of surges, you simply stopped adventuring for the day. Why would you ever move on gimped of perhaps your most powerful ability (the ability to recover from damage). This felt utterly artificial. The squishy skulkers (warlocks, rangers & co) must now emerge to take on a few hits. Why? To spread the damage evenly among all party members. This also felt utterly artificial.

I never understood the rule - why was it there, when it added no fun and only took it away? I think that on some theoretical level the idea was that combats would become fun and exciting when you've run out of surges, and thus are down to the hit points themselves. But since D&D is inherently chaotic and you can never be assured of not getting in trouble, this never made sense to us. There was never an incentive big enough to not simply sleep on it to get back your surges.

Just so you know, it's not that I'm pouring hate on the specific 4E mechanism. I've even added 4E-style healing in the form of one-use magic items (moonstones) that let you spend hit dice as an action (zero in bright light, one in dim light, two in darkness).

The sea change is that this is now very much the exception instead of very much being the rule (odd daily powers notwithstanding).

That's not a huge change. That's a OMGBBQWTF level change! :lol:

Hit dice based healing and overnight healing were inspired by 4E IMHO, they are not exactly the same. They are a lot closer to 4E though than 1-3 hp overnight or your level in hp overnight from AD&D and 3E. The healing is a bit closer to Star Wars Saga where you could get 1-3 second winds a day (1 by default another 2 via talents/feats IIRC).

Rapid non magical healing did not come from pre 4E conceptually does't really matter on the mechanics of how its done.

I've used moonstones as well and they basically duplicated Prayer of Healing in late 3E where I houseruled out the magic item system and went back to AD&D type magic items (using the 3.X items removing the ability to buy and craft them though). A moonstone is a lot nicer looking when you can buy a wand of CLW for 750 gp.

Sod all came from 3E IMHO in 5E conceptually domains maybe, everything else is mostly 4E mechanics to duplicate pre 3E playstyle and dumping 3E and 4E class design (more like 2E if anything). You heal faster sure but everything deals double and triple damage.
 
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While we know those complaints were made, we can’t know what percentage they were of the overall responses. If 5-25% of the responses were of that nature, WotC would probably feel pretty comfy going ahead. 33%+ they might get antsy.

And again, what were the demographics of the complainants? Were most of the negative comments coming from vets or newer players?
You can see the thoughts of WotC’s management on complaining/ concerned fans embodied in this video:

[video=youtube_share;Azcn84IIDVg]https://youtu.be/Azcn84IIDVg[/video]

at the 1:30 mark
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Just as a point, when you say failure, you mean sales failure right? Of course, by that metric, virtually every single RPG on the market, other than D&D, was and is a failure.
You're only a failure in terms of sales if you either don't sell enough to turn a profit (which has a lot to do with your costs, as well), or if you don't sell enough to meet a make-or-break sales goal. 4e definitely didn't hit it's minimum sales goal of $50 million/year, which is hardly surprising, no edition of D&D has ever pulled down that kind of income... if one ever does, it'll likely be able to thank inflation for it. ;P Hasbro never shared it's sales volumes, costs, gross revenue, &c down to that level of detail, so we can't know if it was covering costs or not, but it probably had high development costs for a D&D ed, it certainly seemed to have a lot more folks on the payroll, for instance. But that's moot, because it didn't come near the low end of it's goal, making it a failure.

Other games have made less money on lower volumes and been overwhelming successes, because their costs were low and their prospects (goals) non-existent.

5e's development costs must have been pretty low - just about everyone was laid off and it's mostly retreading past editions' material - so even if it had sold every bit as badly as 4e was rumored to, it'd've likely turned an easy profit. Instead, it's doing wonderfully well by any reasonable measure (only the fad years were better!), but if it had promised to beat the income stream generated by WoW, it'd still be a dismal failure in the boardroom.
::shrug::

Which, of course, runs into the whole gnome effect problem. Just becauses 10% of your audience doesn't like something, that means that nearly 50% of your groups have a problem with something kvetching about this or that change.
Actually, the gnome effect was 10% of your audience liking something and kvetching about it being gone. (Probably more disliked gnomes than liked 'em.) If you dislike something in 5e, you opt out of using it (or, more likely, don't opt in, since so much is optional). But if it's absent, adding it is a much bigger issue.

It's a tad ironic, since the gnome that supposedly caused all that wailing and gnashing, was added back to the game in PH2, within 9 months, probably had been part of it since before the kvetching started, considering lead times.

Healing surges are no longer connected to virtually every source of healing in the game. That's a complete game-changer to me.
To be fair, 4e had rather a lot of 'non-surge' healing, just consistently as daily resources - and far fewer 'slots' available to devote to that than 3.5 or 5e have. The proportions were different than they are in 5e - 4e having had more healing available in surges relative to the very small number of 'slots' that could be devoted to non-surge healing (and had to be chosen at chargen/level-up), in contrast, 5e has less than half (as little as a third or less for fighters, for instance) of the relative healing potential of surges in HD and it's much less accessible , while the number of daily slots is many times what it was in 4e and, if a caster knows even one healing spell (or just preps a healing spell at the start of the day, for the Cleric & Druid), all those slots can be expended on healing, spontaneously (or used for other daily spells). It's not really a huge difference in the nature of healing - healing can be 'natural' from surge/HD resources of the character healing, or from daily resources of a 'healer' character in both cases - but in the versatility and availability of those resources. HD are even less available (fewer, slower to recover, an hour to access) & versatile than surges (which had very few, but some alternate uses), and slots are far more versatile (useable for any spell spontaneously) and available (numerous) than 4e dailies.

So, yeah, HD - a form of non-magical, universal PC healing resource - are 'retained' from 4e healing surges. They're in a bowdlerized form appended to a classic label & mechanic (random hp generation), and don't contribute to class & encounter balancing &c the way surges did, but the provenance is clear.

The squishy skulkers (warlocks, rangers & co) must now emerge to take on a few hits. Why? To spread the damage evenly among all party members. This also felt utterly artificial.
HD represent an even less flexible resource - they're only for healing, and only useable at short rests, which some party members will likely want very much to take a couple times a day - so /everyone/ can access their HD, every day and have nothing else to do with 'em, and if someone isn't 'pulling their weight' in that regard, the short rest could be a waste of time for them.

I suppose it's only a matter of time before 5e adds back Comrades' Succor and allows you to shuffle HD around, though.

I haven't seen anybody mention exceptions-based rule design yet. ...5e feels like it's just as deliberately a cascade of smaller rules like 4e was.
5e does contain the specific-beats-general disclaimer of exception-based design. It doesn't seem to cleave to it as religiously as 4e did, but, yes, it's there.


Another one that I don't think has been mentioned yet: eliminating the mechanical impact of Alignment. In 3e, there were grid-filled 'team alignment' spells and items, each axis had it's own zap-the-opposite set of toys that worked similarly, and, of course, D&D had always had many alignment restriction. 4e simplified alignment from 9 to only the 5 least-unintuitive alignments, and eliminated mechanical affects and restrictions of alignments. 5e reverted to the more complicated 9-alignement system and re-instituted some alignment restrictions (usually in softer form), but it did not return to the 3e 'team alignment' extreme.
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
I thought 4E was a good game, but not at being a good D&D.

Yeah, that’s about where my final analysis lays, too.

As soon as the first party member ran out of surges, you simply stopped adventuring for the day. Why would you ever move on gimped of perhaps your most powerful ability (the ability to recover from damage).

(Edit)

The squishy skulkers (warlocks, rangers & co) must now emerge to take on a few hits.

Never saw this in 4Ed. Just like in prior editions, the dynamic game world prevented- no, very strongly discouraged- the “15 minute workday.

As for the squishies, because of our party makeup, my Dwarven Starlock spent a good amount of time on the front row anyway. He had the 3rd highest HP total and was harder to hit than most.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
Never saw this in 4Ed. Just like in prior editions, the dynamic game world prevented- no, very strongly discouraged- the “15 minute workday.
Some groups have never seen the 5MWD, others have rarely seen anything else.

The prescribed encounters/day for optimal 'balance' is present in 5e (and was there, if not very functional, in 3e, to be fair), as is the short/long rest model, and at-will, short-rest, and daily recharge abilities for most classes in one form or another.

So, as in 4e, a group can tend towards few if any rests, many or few short rests, or frequent long rests even to the point of the FMWD. The difference is whether and how much that distorts balance. 4e was more robust, a 5MWD would make encounters noticeably easier as everyone just unloaded all the dailies they could, but /everyone/ would've been unloading dailies, so class balance wasn't profoundly impacted - similarly, if you had to face a series of encounters without even a short rest, everyone was equally stressed by the lack of surge healing & encounter powers (obviously, Essentials shifted both those a little).
In 5e, as in 3e & classic D&D, there are classes with most of their effectiveness concentrated in daily resources and others that have most of their less-versatile power always on tap, in addition, you have a class or sub-class or few that have a lot of power concentrated in short-rest-recharge abilities. So, if you vary the ratio of encoutners:short-rest:long-rest from the ideal (6-8:2-3:1), you produce inevitable imbalances among those different sorts of classes.

And, no, we can't point to the 6-8 encounter/day as retained from 4e, 4e had no strongly stated intended-balance point like that, and CR goes back to 3e, anyway. (That said, I think Mearls or someone did let slip that they initially expected 6-8 encounter days, but when it turned out that rarely ever happened in practice, they beefed up the MM3 monsters a bit, so that a 4-encounter-or-so day would be more challenging - IDK, it's one of /those/ memories, probably hearsay. :shrug: )

As for the squishies, because of our party makeup, my Dwarven Starlock spent a good amount of time on the front row anyway. He had the 3rd highest HP total and was harder to hit than most.
Even with a solid defender, everyone was going to get hurt, some of the time. You could get really overly-'optimized' defenders who just sucked damage to themselves like a black hole, but they did, indeed, become inefficient for just the reason Cap pointed out - defenders have the most/biggest surges, but everyone else has surges, too, and if they're never touched, the defender actually becomes the weakest link. Either he backs off or pulls a Boromir, at that point - but, hey congrats on being so optimal.

(Defender, BTW, not something 5e kept from 4e, the two defender-in-4e classes in the 5e PH are both Essentials-Slayer-style Strikers.)
 
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