What do you not like about M&M?

drnuncheon said:
Er...sure it does.

Element Control: a bunch of powers built as Extras off of a single power. All the powers are thematically related (and can be drained together), but cost less.

Multipower: a power with a bunch of stunts. You pay a nominal cost (2 points) for the ability to reconfigure the power points into a new configuration.

Variable Power Pool: this is the 'Variable Effect' power, seen in the main book as 'Gadgets' - the full version is in Crooks! A set of points that can potentially do anything.

Check out Sorcery or Cosmic Power as other examples - buy an effect from each category and add Variable Effect for what you've missed. Most well-designed VPPs have limitations anyway - you may be able to substitute those limitations for the Hero Point cost. (Example: a 'gadget pool' that you had to spend time in a lab to change.)


I addressed this in my previous post. EC's and Multipowers can be generally simulated through M&M's power creation rules. I agree. Sorcery and Cosmic Power are examples of that. However, although Variable Effect can somewhat simulate a VPP, the fact that it costs a hero point is a significant drawback in my opinion. If I make a Silver Surfer-esque character, I should be able to effectively use the Power Cosmic in whatever way I choose without having to spend a hero point every time I do it.

Variable Effect is much better at simulating the comic book situation where the hero suddenly uses his power in a new and creative way, like Spider-man using his webbing in a way it wasn't originally intended, or Batman whipping out just the gadget he needs.
 

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I kinda look at M&M as the grandchild of a few different super-powered RPGs. I like to think that it sort of honoring those previous systems (GR is a business so probably not; but hey, I can dream). I think that part of it's appeal is captured in the graphic layout of the books that remind me of the fun of comic books and the rules remind me of the fun of past super-powered RPGs that I enjoyed. The difference is M&M generally does a better job at delivering what is best about super-powered RPGing.
 

Dragonblade said:
However, although Variable Effect can somewhat simulate a VPP, the fact that it costs a hero point is a significant drawback in my opinion. If I make a Silver Surfer-esque character, I should be able to effectively use the Power Cosmic in whatever way I choose without having to spend a hero point every time I do it.
I think this is where we run into a difference in design philosophy: while there are some characters in the comics who can theoretically "do anything" (e.g. Dr. Strange, Green Lantern, and various other gadgeteer and "wizard" characters), in my experience their powers don't work that way in practical terms.

Most of the time, those characters make use of the same "stock" capabilities, the ones they use all the time (in M&M terms, the ones they bought as standard extras and power stunts of their power(s)). Only occasionally does Dr. Strange break out an unusual spell, or the Engineer comes up with some particularly funky gizmo, which you'll likely never see again. Those are as much "power stunts" as Spider-Man doing something unusual with his webbing or the Flash coming up with some novel application of his super-speed.

In my experience playing and running numerous superhero RPGs over the years, giving player characters completely unlimited variable "do anything" powers vastly slows down play because players aren't like characters in a comic book. If there's nothing to limit them, why wouldn't they use their "do anything" power to do exactly what's needed in a given situation? Characters in the comics don't always do so because of the demands of the plot, but that restriction doesn't apply to players in an RPG. So the hero point cost for variable effects (and, by extension, for power stunts in general) provides a "cost" to those things to help keep them occasional "tricks" rather than routine abilities.

So, on the one hand, there isn't a "do anything" power in M&M requiring only time or a skill check to get new powers (like a Hero Variable Power Pool); variable effects require hero points. On the other hand, with the extra effort rules, every hero effectively has a "variable power" of sorts, with a mechanism limiting how often players can break out those unusual stunts.

If you feel M&M really needs something like a Variable Power Pool, you can always add one, like this:

Variable Power
Cost: 3
Action: Half
Range: Personal
Duration: Continuous
Saving Throw: None

You have 2 power points per rank in Variable Power you can allocate to any power you wish, taking a half action to do so. You can divide your power points among multiple powers, as desired. Once allocated, your Variable Power points remain that way until you re-allocate them. Any Flaws on Variable Power also affect any powers you acquire with it, with no reduction in their cost. Flaws applied solely to powers acquired through Variable Power must be relevant and not situational (i.e. you can't apply a Flaw like "only works in outer space" on a power you acquire while in outer space). The GM has the right to veto any particular power if it does not suit the theme and power source of your Variable Power.

The above is essentially Gadgets without the Device and Heroic Effort (i.e. "costs Hero Points") Flaws.

One good "middle ground" for a power like the above is to charge a hero point the first time a character acquires a new power via Variable Power (a power he has never used before, in other words). After that, it's an "established" effect of his Variable Power, usable at will. You can extend the "breaking in" period as desired (such as a hero point charge the first three times a new power is used before it becomes "established," etc.)
 

I think most or all of mine have already been mentioned, but just to add some votes:

- Some powers don't work well with ranks, since they're very front-loaded (by which I mean you get a big benefit from the first rank, any other ranks are comparitively marginal but cost the same). We generally house-ruled these to have a different cost structure, a high base cost plus a small cost per rank.

- Fencepost conditions (events at either end of the probability curve) seem to come up a lot, due to the straight line probability "curve" of a single d20 roll. This is fine for single session scenarios, but we found it got a bit annoying in a campaign since character performance could fluctuate wildly from session to session. We switched to 2d10, and that made things better.

- Power Level and the associated caps are all but useless as a balancing tool, we ended up having to carefully review each build anyway. We switched to a Champions-style approach of specifying appropriate point and effect ranges for different categories, that seemed to work better but was hard to calibrate.

- As a corollary of the latter two points, combat powers below the PL of the expected opposition are very poor, and above the PL are incredibly effective. This might be intended, but it puts a huge emphasis on character efficiency that doesn't really match the rest of the "feel" of the game.

- Very few of the sample characters are built efficiently, which can mislead new players (particularly if they're joining a group where everybody has experience with the system, and as such has characters that are just plain better at what they do).

- Linking powers leads to a lot of point-saving schemes and some wonky costs. We ended up just disallowing this, instead adding a "Powers are linked" weakness for concepts with a suite of related powers.

All in all, it's a cool game, but we found it was better for one-shots than campaigns straight out of the book. We ended up going back to Champions for supers campaigns.
 

Kenson said:
Variable Power
Cost: 3
Action: Half
Range: Personal
Duration: Continuous
Saving Throw: None

You have 2 power points per rank in Variable Power you can allocate to any power you wish, taking a half action to do so. You can divide your power points among multiple powers, as desired. Once allocated, your Variable Power points remain that way until you re-allocate them. Any Flaws on Variable Power also affect any powers you acquire with it, with no reduction in their cost. Flaws applied solely to powers acquired through Variable Power must be relevant and not situational (i.e. you can't apply a Flaw like "only works in outer space" on a power you acquire while in outer space). The GM has the right to veto any particular power if it does not suit the theme and power source of your Variable Power.

The above is essentially Gadgets without the Device and Heroic Effort (i.e. "costs Hero Points") Flaws.

One good "middle ground" for a power like the above is to charge a hero point the first time a character acquires a new power via Variable Power (a power he has never used before, in other words). After that, it's an "established" effect of his Variable Power, usable at will. You can extend the "breaking in" period as desired (such as a hero point charge the first three times a new power is used before it becomes "established," etc.)

Ah! Brilliant! See, I had something like this in mind, but you have it written out so beautifully. This is what I was looking for. Thanks Steve! :D

Now, about front loaded powers, Disintegrate, and Mind Control... ;)

Is there any possibility of a dedicated web page on the main M&M site that captures all of these sorts of things? Like you have the new Summon power on the web site, but I'm sure you have all sorts of posts to not only me but others about new ways of thinking of powers, rules you have come up with on the fly and so forth. Do you keep track of this stuff? Do you write this stuff down?

How about a PDF compiling all this great knowledge in one source?
 

SWBaxter said:
All in all, it's a cool game, but we found it was better for one-shots than campaigns straight out of the book. We ended up going back to Champions for supers campaigns.

Some great observations SWBaxter. My group and I were totally excited when M&M first came out, but we ran into a lot of the same issues that you did, and ended up going to HERO 5th for supers games.

Although, I see a lot of potential in M&M and believe it may one day surpass HERO as my supers system of choice, that day has not yet come. Although it comes closer thanks to Steve Kenson's excellent design work and responsiveness to internet fanboys like myself. :)
 

In addition to the general balance issues and lack of guidelines on how to make balanced characters, what I most dislike is the skill system. Skills are way too expensive. I understand that the game's philosophy was to make characters rely more on Super Ability scores than on skill ranks, but why bother having skill rank maxima of PL+3 then?

I also would prefer a much smaller, consolidated skill list to the vast D&D/M&M skill list. Combine balance, jump, and tumble into Acrobatics, combine Hide and Move Silently into Sneak, combine Listen and Spot and Search into Notice or Perception, combine the technical skills, combine the social skills.
 


In all honesty, I like M&M. I've played it on and off since it came out and am constantly looking at ways that I can improve it. That said, my group and I have been playing Hero/Champions lately, as my players have gotten kind of frustrated with M&M. Why? Well, for the following reasons:
- The XP system is a little too broken for us. While the mechanics for the most part are good, the players have felt that the XP system is just a bit too generous as they've gone up in level a bit quicker than they'd like.
- We didn't care for the 15 + X DC base, as it was too predictable. We house ruled that powers have a default save of d20 + power rating for things like damage or such. This allows a more random occurance and adds a bit of surprise to the ratio.
- We have to agree that the HP extra effort can occasionally hit below the belt. But I'm torn on this, as it does enforce a bit of control to powers like Sorcery.
- We agree on some of the powers. I think that some abilities should have a flat cost while others should be level dependent. Something like Invisibility should be a bit static in representation, while other abilities, like Energy Blast should be a bit more variable.

In all reality, I think that some of the problems that M&M has is that it's taking a level system (d20) and converting it over to a point system and still trying to retain some of the feel. IMHO, the game needs to take a stance ... if it's going to be a point system, then divorce a bit from the level concept. If levels is what M&M needs, then maybe it needs to get closer to the d20 Core?

As for the grandchild comment, I also agree with this, as I see various systems that are being homaged in M&M. Some of the powers remind me of V&V and Marvel Saga, while the feel of the game really tries to feel a bit like both classic and saga Marvel. But, in the core, there's also a lot of Champions there.

Don't get me wrong, I like the M&M game and I'm looking for it to mature a bit. I mean, after all, it took Champions a while to become a great system, and that's the advantage that it has. Now if GR were to make M&M books with Hero stats ... I'd be all over them ;) Heck, who am I kidding, I get most of the M&M books as is ... if nothing more, Steve Kenson made a great campaign setting with Freedom City ;)
 

Dragonblade said:
Although, I see a lot of potential in M&M and believe it may one day surpass HERO as my supers system of choice, that day has not yet come. Although it comes closer thanks to Steve Kenson's excellent design work and responsiveness to internet fanboys like myself. :)
Me, too. Which is why I'm not abandoning it fully. Even Champion have gone through some rough periods in its freshman years.
 

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