What do you think about Monte's new PHB Racial Levels?

[Saeviomagy]

Two problems:
1. These classes don't really make anyone any more a member of their race. A dwarf becomes more dwarfy by taking levels in fighter, or possibly expert miner. An elf becomes a wizard. A human does a bunch of things, picking classes to taste.

2. Most of them are not a good idea to take as first level choices. Any of the ones which give caster levels for instance are particularly poor choices, and the ones which don't are typically inferior to taking your first couple of levels of fighter or barbarian or whatever. So they're not a good choice for producing an untrained member of a race.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

2. Most of them are not a good idea to take as first level choices. Any of the ones which give caster levels for instance are particularly poor choices, and the ones which don't are typically inferior to taking your first couple of levels of fighter or barbarian or whatever. So they're not a good choice for producing an untrained member of a race.

Actually, to my mind, that make them ideal for representing an untrained member of a race. It gives them enough talent/skill/ability to put them beyond a standard commoner (i.e. someone with "potential") without showing any particular training.

 

[Technik4]

I'm mixed. Like others I like some aspects, but am really uncertain about letting this into the game.

Personally it seems like a sound basis for 4.0. Assuming things are recognizable (feat and skill system coupled with leveling) giving each and every race anywhere from 3-10 levels of "itself" makes for some interesting additions to the game. Perhaps we could even use the racial mechanic to get rid of NPC and base race classes (like Monstrous Humanoid) altogether. Dopplegangers take levels of Doppleganger and Minotaurs take levels of Minotaur, they don't both take Monstrous Humanoid

You need an orc leader? Just make a 4th level orc. You need a special orc NPC, give him class levels. You want to "advance" a monster, just level it up. Further with a tweaked class system, it provides even more options for PCs. I think the mechanic could be cleaned up for the half-breeds though.

For the ideas in 3e, I think each race should have the option of increasing their primary stat (Elves - Dex) or "overcoming" their racial deficiency (Elves - Con).

Technik

 

[Aluvial]

How Would You CHANGE Racial Levels For Your Campaign?

Excellent discussion!

My new question would now be:

How would you tweak the rules to be more balanced?

Obviously these rules are a good springboard for anyone to use if they choose (I count ALL rules in this department, they get my creative juices flowing again...), I believe that most rules need some tweaking for insertion into any specific campaign. Your campaign might want to change the HD; mine would change the abilities, and so on...

There was quite a bit of discussion about the hit die of certain races, a d6 for gnomes seems weak, a d8 for half-orcs the same, etc. And spellcasting for humans seemed to be a problem for some.

One of the best ideas I read, was to allow races the ability to choose to either overcome racial deficiencies, or improve racial ability bonuses.


How would you change these rules for use in your game, if you HAD to use them?

Aluvial

 

[kreynolds]

What do you guys think of them?

I like it. It's what I did with my Flame Freak, a good while back. I was inspired by the prestige races article in Dragon, but found it somewhat lacking. So I took that concept and converted it to levels, kinda like how Savage Species handles monster classes. The only real difference between savage species and my prestige races are that my prestige races are balanced from level to level just as well as most prestige classes (or I try, anyway).

I also expanded my prestige races idea into Master Classes, which is basically a core or prestige class that is ultra specialized on one or more class abilities. For example, a Master Wizard would increase in spellcasting capabilities twice as fast as a standard wizard, but he would gain little or nothing else in the process.

 

[Storminator]

Re: How Would You CHANGE Racial Levels For Your Campaign?

Excellent discussion!

My new question would now be:

<SNIP>

How would you change these rules for use in your game, if you HAD to use them?

Aluvial

I would slightly rejigger the hit dice and skill points.

Humans, d6 and 4+INT
Dwarf, D8 and 2+INT
Elf, d6 and 2+INT
Gnome, d6 and 4+INT
Half-elf, d6 and 4+INT
Half-orc, d8 and 2+INT
Halfling, d6 and 2+INT

I would also make up orc levels for the HO.

I'm going to use them in my next campaign, and this is how I'll modify them. I think I'll keep the powers as is, at least until I play them (unless I hear a really great idea here first).

PS

 

[Lalato]

On the other hand, core races are a bit more powerful in general than AU races. Compare:

• +2 Dex, -2 Con
• Immunity to sleep, +2 saves vs. enchantment spells
• Low-light vision
• Free proficiency in bows, longsword and rapier
• +2 Listen, Search and Spot.
• Auto-detection of secret doors.

to:

• +2 Str, -2 Dex
• Creature Type: Giant (note: AU spells are changed so that being a non-humanoid is no longer protection against many low-level spells).
• +2 Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Craft.

No low-light vision, no free weapon proficiencies, no spell immunities. Just a balanced stat modifier and a few skill bonuses. Essentially, being able to take racial levels *is* the main racial ability of the AU races.

Staffan... that's absolutely right, and that's why I will be changing the core classes to better fit the racial level paradigm. Elves, for all intents and purposes, are ECL +1/2. So are Dwarves. I will probably spread some of their current abilities throughout the levels and give them a boost to the abilities provided in the pdf. Basically, I will make the core races more similar in format to the AU races.

That just makes more sense to me than what is presented in the pdf.

--sam

 

[Henry]

I myself would rather use racial levels in place of the +1 ability increase per 4 levels, to represent physical training as well as enhancing racial characteristics.

Perhaps an elf takes racial levels, and gets more dexterous and intelligent.

Perhaps a human takes racial levels, and gains some ability score points to put where he wishes.

I like the idea, and think it has merit, but so far not many others do. But it makes a more logical consistancy to me, that if you want to physically improve, you devote more time to it than you would your training or studies.


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As for the classes, I like what Monte presented from Charles/Andy/Jesse, but I definitely think they would work for me was written.

 

[Zub]

I most specifically do not like that mechanic. D&D is a level-based game, and levels are supposed to be the primary measure of a character's power. Adding extra powers to a character that are not represented through his level and class/feat/skill/spell selections degrades that system in my opinion, even if the paths themselves are well-balanced.

How do you feel about using XP on wish or permanance spells to buff your character?

 

[Kichwas]

It's basic DnD all over again.

I'm not sure why just yet, but conceptually this stuff just doesn't sit well with me. It doesn't 'feel' right as an idea. No idea how I'll respond if a player asks to use it.