What DON'T you like about 1E AD&D?
- Thread starter Odhanan
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Arnwyn
First Post
Aside: Only if the sample is representative of the population at large (in which we have no evidence that that particular poll is or isn't). Internet polls on messageboards are simply not representative outside of that specific messageboard, period. The referenced poll could be reasonable for ENWorld, though.Numion said:
*Ahem* People at ENWorld need to re-take their statistics courses. I've seen too often in recent times people trying to make completely unsubtantiated (and unsupportable) claims about "majorities" and "minorities", "most" and "very few", applied to things outside ENWorld. A failure, every single time.
[/hijack]
Storm Raven
First Post
SuStel said:
Actually, for the question being asked, it probably is a pretty representative sample - because it covers the activity of a lot of people not on ENWorld as well (i.e. people ENWorld regulars gamed with who played D&D).
As for other information, we have the knowledge of how the original designers of the game played. We also have access to the materials published in Dragon from the 1e era to draw upon, including letters, editorials, and other articles that discussed play styles and gaming group mechanics. We have the experiences of many people who attended conventions in the time frame in question and discussed this sort of thing with a wide variety of other gamers. Does the poll stand alone? No, it is backed by an array of other information that, taken as individual items, probably wouldn't stand on their own, but taken together, add up to a picture from which we can reasonably draw conclusions.
Every source of information we have on this indicates that groups with multiple DMs outnumbered those that had exclusive DMs. You may not like the result, but it is the only information we have, and nothing has cropped up to contradict that conclusion. If you have some good evidence for the other side, then produce it. Otherwise, you are just whining that the information we have doesn't say what you want.
Numion
First Post
Arnwyn said:
Still, the poll means that as far as ENWorld goes, majority likely had more than one DM at the table in 1E. Even if that did diddly squat for the population at large, it makes the argument that "1 DM + N completely clueless players about the DMG" was the norm much weaker in this crowd.
ENWorld <-> outside world connection is iffy, but a hypothesis backed by an ENWorld poll is stronger than a hypothesis made against an ENWorld poll. ENWorld D&D roleplayer is not that different from the average D&D roleplayer.
Psst .. don't tell my employer, I get paid good money for above kind of work
Arnwyn
First Post
Indeed, but it still shouldn't be made (in any responsible post, at least, without proper disclaimers demonstrating an understanding of statistics. Bah... I ask too much...). No evidence either way on that last sentence, but so far anecdotally I've seen enough shocking differences both from ENWorld posters and 'outsider worlders' (heck, messageboard posters and everyone else, really!Numion said:
) that I can only shrug and refer back to the requirements of proper research and sampling techniques.I did forget to mention in my post above that your mention of "confidence" warmed the cockles of my heart. (What the heck is a cockle?)Psst .. don't tell my employer, I get paid good money for above kind of work
Maggan
Writer for CY_BORG, Forbidden Lands and Dragonbane
Arnwyn said:
Heh. People have opinions about truckloads of things they know squat about. I'm sure that most of the people posting on EN World don't need to re-take their statistics courses.
Beause a majority have in all probability not taken any course in statistics.
/M
Numion
First Post
Arnwyn said:No evidence either way on that last sentence, but so far anecdotally I've seen enough shocking differences both from ENWorld posters and 'outsider worlders' (heck, messageboard posters and everyone else, really!
It was my mistake; I jumped into conclusion that his beef was with the sample size, and not with ENWorld <-> general D&D gamer link. It's just that I had calculated some confidence limits for simple binomial stuff in work, and I guess I was eager to jump in. You know the feeling when once in a blue moon a forum topic actually touches something you actually know something about?
Anyways, Storm Raven makes a good point about the representativeness of the sample, because the poll is a question from ENWorlders about people outside of ENWorld.
A bit similar to making a poll on the percentage of people aged 20-25 that are in a relationship. You only have access to SinglesForum, say, and you make two polls:
A) Are you 20-25 years old and single?
B) What percentage of your 20-25 year old friends (you included) are single?
A) is going to be very skewed compared to general populace, since it's singles forum, but B) might yield results closer to truth. Not wholly accurate analogy, though.
I admit that the half-assed arguments I made wouldn't stand up to scientific scrutiny, but it's just a piece of the whole picture where everything seems to point to the direction that the norm was not "1 DM + N players clueless on DMG".
Storm Raven said:
Umm... I simply asked where the assumption that most groups had multiple referees came from, then sarcastically gave my opinion on the worth of Internet forum polls. I'm not backing "the other side," and I certainly didn't whine. Methinks you are rather defensive about this topic.
Storm Raven
First Post
SuStel said:
Ah, so you have nothing whatsoever to add to the discussion and can henceforth be ignored. Good to know.
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