D&D General What elements does D&D need to keep?

[MGibster]

One thing I didn't see on the list was the divide between divine and arcane magic. i.e. Gotta make sure Wizards can't cast healing spells. I don't know if D&D was the first work of fiction to distinguish magic in that manner but I consider it a quintessential D&Dism.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

One thing I didn't see on the list was the divide between divine and arcane magic. i.e. Gotta make sure Wizards can't cast healing spells. I don't know if D&D was the first work of fiction to distinguish magic in that manner but I consider it a quintessential D&Dism.

Except then you have Bards, who do cast arcane magic and can heal (even without stealing spells via Magical Secrets), and at least in 5e Favored Soul Sorcerers and Celestial Warlocks.

Just about the only inherently arcane-caster class that can't heal at all is Wizard. And even that was a boundary they tested with UA (school of Theurgy). 5e has put arcane magic more in the position of "it doesn't innately heal" rather than "it cannot heal," usually requiring a celestial or divine boost to get there but, as noted with Bard, not always.

 

[MGibster]

xcept then you have Bards, who do cast arcane magic and can heal (even without stealing spells via Magical Secrets), and at least in 5e Favored Soul Sorcerers and Celestial Warlocks.

Of course I knew about Bard but they're a jack-of-all-trades class with their fingers in a lot of pies. I thought about mentioning them but didn't think it was necessary. And given the fluff text of the Celestial Warlock, with the pact that "allows you to experience the barest touch of the holy light that illuminates the multiverse," I consider them divine casters though the description says they channel celestial energy to cure wounds. Maybe celestial energy isn't divine in D&D.

 

[Lanefan]

Fireball is The game's first real room clearer.

100 hip points pulls you out of Power Word Kill range.

I keep forgetting that 5e has converted what should be straight save-or-die into boring hit point damage.

Put another way, no matter how many h.p. you have Power Word Kill should still be a serious threat to you.

And two attacks a turn doubles your damage or major targets in combat.

Both I and original 1e smooth out this progression by inserting a 3/2 step between 1/1 and 2/1. I also smooth out the progression of 1e weapon specialization so the bonuses arrive incrementally by level rather than all at once. It's easy enough to do things like this.

 

[Lanefan]

Except then you have Bards, who do cast arcane magic and can heal (even without stealing spells via Magical Secrets), and at least in 5e Favored Soul Sorcerers and Celestial Warlocks.

Thing is, the 5e Bard probably isn't a good example of anything except of how to make Bards not be nearly as cool and interesting as they could be.

To work properly, IMO, Bards need to be divorced from the casting mechanics of any other class and have their own unique system, completely based on sound and sonic energy and with most of their abilities - which may or may not vaguely resemble other class' spells - on a modified at-will basis rather than using slots.

And they shouldn't be able to heal.

 

[Minigiant]

I keep forgetting that 5e has converted what should be straight save-or-die into boring hit point damage.

Put another way, no matter how many h.p. you have Power Word Kill should still be a serious threat to you.

PWK has been SoD unless you are over 100 HP for several editions.

Both I and original 1e smooth out this progression by inserting a 3/2 step between 1/1 and 2/1. I also smooth out the progression of 1e weapon specialization so the bonuses arrive incrementally by level rather than all at once. It's easy enough to do things like this.

3/2 still is a big jump in offence over 1/1. Especially if your DM allows te double attack first round or second. It's still a big jump in tier. +50% APR.

It smooths stuff out though but I remember our fighter forgetting whether he was on the 2 attack round or not.

 

[Faolyn]

Thing is, the 5e Bard probably isn't a good example of anything except of how to make Bards not be nearly as cool and interesting as they could be.

To work properly, IMO, Bards need to be divorced from the casting mechanics of any other class and have their own unique system, completely based on sound and sonic energy and with most of their abilities - which may or may not vaguely resemble other class' spells - on a modified at-will basis rather than using slots.

And they shouldn't be able to heal.

They should be like warlocks, then, with something akin to Invocations.

Personally, I think rangers should be like that as well--skip the spells, just give them bits of ranger knowledge which are structured like Invocations in how they're laid out.

 

[turnip_farmer]

If there's no endcap for levels, then you have to keep coming up with new XP totals for every level from 1 to infinity--because there will be some table that manages to get their PCs up to 1,000th level.

 

[Remathilis]

Agreed on classes and levels (though there shouldn't be a capstone level, leave it open-ended).

I don't see a value in this from a practical standpoint. Sure, you can theoretically level forever, but the game isn't (nor ever was); built to handle that. Spell levels cap at 9th, with no reasonable effects more powerful than wish. Most attack bonuses have long since reached the level of auto-hit all but a God's AC, and gaining more spell slots just further makes it impossible to challenge PCs. Eventually, you'd level past elder dragons and demon lords and they only thing you can do is open Deities and Demigods and start using it as you monster manual, pantheon by pantheon.

Basic capped advancement at 36th level before forcing the PCs to retire or begin the path to immortality. 4e capped at 30 with Epic Destinies that did similar concepts. AD&D had a soft cap of 29 in the PHB, and the less said about the Epic Level Handbook (or DMO: High Level Campaigns) the better. Eventually, high level play is just numbers-bloat and face-rolling demon lords. I really don't see a point.

 

[Lanefan]

I don't see a value in this from a practical standpoint. Sure, you can theoretically level forever, but the game isn't (nor ever was); built to handle that.

I agree, which means there's three parts to what I'm saying (one of which I probably left unsaid):

1. Make it open-ended i.e. no hard capstone
2. Slow down the advancement.
3. (as yet unsaid) Adjust the mechanics and-or opposition such that extremely-high-level characters can still find viable threats...or make it that the focus of play slowly morphs along the way from dealing with threats to dealing with powers and politics.

Spell levels cap at 9th, with no reasonable effects more powerful than wish. Most attack bonuses have long since reached the level of auto-hit all but a God's AC, and gaining more spell slots just further makes it impossible to challenge PCs. Eventually, you'd level past elder dragons and demon lords and they only thing you can do is open Deities and Demigods and start using it as you monster manual, pantheon by pantheon.

Or have the PCs have to deal with the deities non-viloently. In my worlds PCs aren't immortal but deities are, so no PC with a shred of brains is going to try and kill a deity outright. Thus dealing with them becomes a matter of bargaining, favour-exchanges, politics, alliances, betrayals, and so forth - talky rather than fighty, most of the time; and all the while in knowledge that you're still dealing with bigger fish than yourselves.

Basic capped advancement at 36th level before forcing the PCs to retire or begin the path to immortality. 4e capped at 30 with Epic Destinies that did similar concepts. AD&D had a soft cap of 29 in the PHB, and the less said about the Epic Level Handbook (or DMO: High Level Campaigns) the better. Eventually, high level play is just numbers-bloat and face-rolling demon lords. I really don't see a point.

It can get that way, and various systems do tend to go off the rails. That said, it's more than possible to make things appear and play as open-ended by slowing PC advancement such that reaching 10th level becomes a Really Big Deal and getting to 12th level is almost unheard of, even though the game design allows for 20.