I don’t think the class unique bits matter for the first part so much, and for the second like I said given the amount of class customization and tactical play as the core expectation of this game player desire to learn and master your class is a baseline requirement of the game. I’d think your experience with 4e would give you a perspective on this.
What gets me playing Draw Steel and not Pathfinder 2e?
- Thread starter Elvish Lore
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I don’t think the class unique bits matter for the first part so much, and for the second like I said given the amount of class customization and tactical play as the core expectation of this game player desire to learn and master your class is a baseline requirement of the game. I’d think your experience with 4e would give you a perspective on this.
Jason Bulmahn also ran a game for Geek & Sundry that used theatre of the mind.
As for the differences, I think Draw Steel looks much more immediate in what it does – particularly for what passes for martial characters. In PF2, the stuff martial characters do tend to be based on normal maneuvers that anyone can do (though of course training and skill feats and such helps).
For a low-level example: PF2 has the action Shove, which is a thing anyone can do using the Athletics skill vs the opponent's Fortitude DC. On a success, the opponent gets pushed 5 ft away, and you can follow them but doing so provokes an opportunity attack from anyone else. Fighters can learn the Brutish Shove feat, which gives them the benefit that if they're using a two-handed weapon and are making an attack with a multi-attack penalty (the Press trait), they can also Shove the opponent on a hit (without an additional roll), and follow up without triggering OAs. There are also upgrades you can take at level 4 and 12. The only limit to how often you can use this is that you need to have made an attack already on your turn, so the combination costs 2 of your 3 actions.
The closest equivalent in DS would be the Fury ability Brutal Slam. You just make a power (attack) roll, deal damage, and push the target 1/2/4 squares depending on the roll. No muss, no fuss. There's also a Fury ability named "Out of the way!". Depending on your roll, you hit for 3/5/8+Might damage and slide the target 2/3/5 squares. BAM! Done. Much more significant effect, and you don't have to jump through hoops. Much like in PF2 you can follow along, but doing so doesn't protect you from the equivalent of OAs, but any such damage you take will also hit the target. However, this ability does have a low-ish Ferocity cost, so you can't spam it like you in theory can with Brutish Shove.
SteveC
Doing the best imitation of myself
I definitely see where you're coming from here. It doesn't bother me that the classes have different ways to accumulate or recharge powers so much because they were all designed at the same time and the design was worked out all at the same time.
PF2 has had several series of class designers, and has definitely shifted their method of character creation. Earlier classes have a much more rigid design structure, whereas (and this is just my opinion, of course) the design has shifted to be more open. You have characters who use their Class Attibute for everything, whereas the original classes have rigid definitions of which skill or attribute does what, and that can lead to having characters with multiple-attribute-dependancy.
Yep. Part of my lack of enthusiasm is due to my past 4e experience. I don't have a group motivated to learn tactical play. Honestly, I don't know if I even have the mental focus to do it.
I have to say that the presentation of 4e's rules seemed better and more streamlined than Draw Steel.
payn
Glory to Marik
ORLY? The game opening up some sounds much more interesting to me.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
Well that's your problem right there, as they say.
The selling point of Draw Steel! is that it's a tactical combat-focused heroic fantasy RPG. If your players aren't interested in tactical combat and you also aren't then, yeah that is definitely not the game for you. Especially if you know this to be true from 4E.
That said, Draw Steel! is not as complicated or fiddly in combat at PF2 is. It's more tactical but it's more about positioning and combos and so on, but it's not got that clunky (imho) three-action structure and the annoying way of working out hits and crits and so on that PF2 has.
I get this but this is a very temporary and minor problem in my experience. Like, unless you have group who really struggle with rules (in which case all new non-rules-light games will be difficult to adapt to), it won't past a session or two. Once the players themselves understand how their PCs work you don't need to keep track of it anymore. DS! has a lot of choices one might question but it doesn't have terribly complex rules. I'd go as far as to say they're significantly less complex than 5E, let alone PF2.
I mean, there's an open question as to whether that's something that's viable in this kind of design.
Essentially retreating is not viable in 3E, 4E, or 5E D&D. Retreating, RAW, and without the DM being intentionally generous, is just a good way to ensure a TPK (or perhaps a TPK for all but one PC, if there's a PC who is a lot faster than both all the other PCs and all the opponents, and can sufficiently outrange enemy ranged attacks/spells) in all those editions, short of things like magic which teleports the entire party away or temporarily CCs the enemy (which is not very accessible).
You need to fundamentally design with retreating being a major and viable mode of play if you want that to really work, and few games do that, because they simply don't simulate the factors that make retreats viable IRL (particularly that being that pursuing enemies don't want to die or even become exhausted IRL, whereas in easily 95% of D&D combats, enemies are run as 100% uncaring for their own lives and well-being - HP existing makes this issue much worse because DMs can be too certain enemies can "safely" pursue even if they incur some damage, which helps make retreating invalid as a strategy in D&D), and far too many fantasy beings and monsters are far too good at killing people fleeing battle.
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Then it probably isn't the game for you. The game is unapologetically "Tactical Heroic Cinematic Fantasy". This is not a Swiss Army Knife of a game that can do a lot of things adequately. It does the thing it does, and (presumably – I haven't had the opportunity to actually play yet) it does it well.
The introduction even says, paraphrased: "While you might be going into dungeons in this game, it's not a game about dungeon-crawling. If you're looking for that, try Shadowdark." and then repeats the process with wilderness exploration/Forbidden Lands, horror/Call of Cthulhu, comedy/Paranoia, and dramatic but non-tactical combat/Daggerheart. Which is pretty much the only time I've seen an RPG explicitly tell people to play games from other companies.
Draw Steel does allow for setting non-murder goals for an encounter – perhaps ironically because of its explicit gamist focus. One of the encounters in the demo adventure Road to Brockhurst has two possible win conditions: kill enough goblins that the rest disperse, or get the party's wagon across the map so they can escape. If it leaves the designated map, the goblins give up pursuit.
Enrahim
Hero
The critical difference between draw steel and all the D&D editions is that the character remains conscious but with discurraged to do offensive actions when under 0. This gives a more obvious retreat point.
Also a chase scene might break out of combat, in which free recoveries come into play - meaning actually giving chase could be a huge gamble for monsters without recoveries?
Ruin Explorer
Legend
Not by the rules so can't check easily, but can PCs still move at full sprint speed whilst below 0, and what if they get hit again?
But wouldn't that cut both ways? It gives a mechanical incentive to tightly pursue PCs to prevent that from happening.
Sorry not arguing for the sake of arguing, if DS! does have a better retreat options than other D&D-ish games, that's major like the way Worlds Without Number is one of the first D&D-ish games which has proper "stealth kill" rules and it genuinely changes how you can approach situations (for the better imo).
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