What gets me playing Draw Steel and not Pathfinder 2e?

[Campbell]

Haven't brought it to the table yet to see for sure, but one of the areas of design I'm most impressed by is how much they seem to have designed with an eye towards reducing the back and forth imvolved in resolving actions. "Anyone with less than 2 Agility is now prone" seems like it will be way quicker than calling for saves, waiting for everyone to roll, checking to see which effects apply based on the DC, etc. Same for players just being able to say I do 12 cold damage to every enemy in this area based on their ability roll.

 

[zakael19]

I need to run the Delian Tomb at some point to explore the system with folks. I’m intrigued if the flow of combat is enough to get around my general distaste for tactical play.

 

[Retreater]

My experience is that my group really makes few decisions in PF2. We use a rotation of the same abilities every combat. I could basically write a script that would handle most encounters and I could watch TV or something.
1) Do I have an enemy with an exploited vulnerability? If no, do that.

Last session, I violated cardinal step 1 and decided to not exploit vulnerability on the remaining enemy with my action. He was a spellcaster. Had I done that, I could've potentially stopped him from casting a spell that was very dangerous to the party and dragged the combat an additional 2 rounds.
Not following the script leads to bad outcomes.

 

[SteveC]

Last session, I violated cardinal step 1 and decided to not exploit vulnerability on the remaining enemy with my action. He was a spellcaster. Had I done that, I could've potentially stopped him from casting a spell that was very dangerous to the party and dragged the combat an additional 2 rounds.
Not following the script leads to bad outcomes.

I haven't played a Thaumaturge yet, but I've seen them in play at lower levels. I play a rogue, and I have a lot of options in combat, but the one I need to do each round to be effective is "attack an opponent who is off-guard" much of the time, I do this by moving into a flank position. So there is in effect an "action tax" for me each round. And I'm okay with it.

Now that my rogue has gotten to level 6, I have Gang Up, a class feat that lets me and my allies get an opponent off-guard simply by being adjacent to them, which is a really nice ability. But up until I did that, I had to figure out how to to get that bonus so I'd do sneak attack. I suspect your character is in the same boat. Figuring out what to do when you can't get your optimal turn to work is part of the fun of the game, and I designed my character around that. I think that's the attitude I would take with a Thamaturge, or any other class who has a preferred turn action order. Or play a character of a different class.

Have you considered what would have happened if you tried to exploit vulnerability and failed? Making the best of a less than perfect turn is what PF2 and other games with tactical options are all about.

 

[Retreater]

Have you considered what would have happened if you tried to exploit vulnerability and failed? Making the best of a less than perfect turn is what PF2 and other games with tactical options are all about.

I'd have to critically fail (Natural 1) to get no benefit from exploit vulnerability.
I can have less than perfect turns by...
1) Missing an attack roll
2) Being unable to reach a target due to my speed
3) Running out of actions before I could do anything important
I don't need to set myself up for failure by not doing the one thing that my character exists to do.

 

[ffanxii4ever]

The character creation for Draw Steel is just as robust and time consuming as Parhfinder 2. Draw Steel plays faster for me. The options flow easier and group tactics blend better. I love kits and the creativity they allow. The initiative system is fast and easy. The Director (DM) seemed to handle large amounts of monsters quickly without bookkeeping. The combats seem more fun in Draw Steel and their victory mechanic is so much fun. No more 5 minute workdays. You want to press on as a hero. How you build your resource is different for each class and that is refreshing. Plus NO multiclassing! Yay!

Forge Steel is just as good as Pathbuilder in my opinion, and both make character creation a breeze.

Between always having an effect (even if you roll a 2 on the dice, you will still have a Tier 1 effect and do something - you can't whiff and go "well, I guess I wait another round to try to do something!") and the way Victories and Recoveries make it so there is no weird waiting in between fights for a short rest, 5 minute adventuring days so the spellcaster can get their slots back, or twiddling your thumbs for 10 minute long Exploration Turns to roll Treat Wounds/Recover Focus Points. Instead you catch your breath, wipe the blood off your sword, maybe grab the glowing ring off of the finger of the now-dead cultist, and push forward deeper into danger, and actually gain an immediate bonus too, as you have one more Victory, so you will start the next fight with one more heroic resource.

I'd have to critically fail (Natural 1) to get no benefit from exploit vulnerability.
I can have less than perfect turns by...
1) Missing an attack roll
2) Being unable to reach a target due to my speed
3) Running out of actions before I could do anything important
I don't need to set myself up for failure by not doing the one thing that my character exists to do.

I mean... It kinda sounds like you just aren't enjoying the game. Crazy idea, but have you thought about saying "hey guys, I'm not enjoying playing this character, mind if I make xyz changes?"

 

[Kichwas]

I'd have to critically fail (Natural 1) to get no benefit from exploit vulnerability.

I don't need to set myself up for failure by not doing the one thing that my character exists to do.

When I played a Thaum I'd skip exploit on some minions just to have an extra action. Not often, but now and then when actions were precious to me like needing to get to a location or something.

Otherwise yes - most of the time you're just repeating the same rotations and the fact that PF2E has the whole 3-action economy becomes less interesting once you realize so many classes have largely locked in rotations.

Its one of the things that has disillusioned me on the highly 'tactical' tRPGs. I'm still exploring around in more open games like Daggerheart to see if the loser structure leads to my dynamic tactics or if we just end up in the same place through a different door.

Is this 'repetitiveness' an unavoidable problem that exists between the chair and the dice, or is it something related to actual game design?

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

I'm a little unclear on how a variable rotation in PF2 or DS is somehow worse than a fighter or barbarian in D&D attacking and attacking and attacking.

 

[Enrahim]

When I played a Thaum I'd skip exploit on some minions just to have an extra action. Not often, but now and then when actions were precious to me like needing to get to a location or something.

Otherwise yes - most of the time you're just repeating the same rotations and the fact that PF2E has the whole 3-action economy becomes less interesting once you realize so many classes have largely locked in rotations.

Its one of the things that has disillusioned me on the highly 'tactical' tRPGs. I'm still exploring around in more open games like Daggerheart to see if the loser structure leads to my dynamic tactics or if we just end up in the same place through a different door.

Is this 'repetitiveness' an unavoidable problem that exists between the chair and the dice, or is it something related to actual game design?

Draw steel's victory system I think is a really strong contender for a design directly counteracting this rotation, as what is going to be a good play in round 1 is almost certanly dependent on your victory count. You might get a stable state once you have blasted trough that victory resources, and are driving on per round income; but then the limitation on battle length makes this less of a phenomenom.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Is this 'repetitiveness' an unavoidable problem that exists between the chair and the dice, or is it something related to actual game design?

Its a good question, since there seems to be some pretty varied experiences even within one game system.