What gets me playing Draw Steel and not Pathfinder 2e?

[ffanxii4ever]

Draw steel's victory system I think is a really strong contender for a design directly counteracting this rotation, as what is going to be a good play in round 1 is almost certanly dependent on your victory count. You might get a stable state once you have blasted trough that victory resources, and are driving on per round income; but then the limitation on battle length makes this less of a phenomenom.

That's a really good point. And it also works on both sides of the GM Screen, because as the players have more Victories, the GM has more and more Malice (their meta-resource) at the start of combat, and can also do bigger and bigger effects earlier.

 

[Retreater]

Its one of the things that has disillusioned me on the highly 'tactical' tRPGs.

Yes. I'm finding that "highly tactical" alone isn't enough to hold my interest for a long term campaign. There are not enough potential actions, diversity in the monsters, or battlefield situations in the minds of men to hold my attention for 1+ years of play.

I'm a little unclear on how a variable rotation in PF2 or DS is somehow worse than a fighter or barbarian in D&D attacking and attacking and attacking.

I'm not holding up 5e D&D as some pinnacle of great game design. But I will say that I've never had to wait 28 minutes between my turns in 5e.

 

[SteveC]

I'm not holding up 5e D&D as some pinnacle of great game design. But I will say that I've never had to wait 28 minutes between my turns in 5e.

That was high level 3E combat. I wonder what levels you're running at and how many players. I have run up to level 8 and played Pathfinder Society adventures up to only level 6, but ... I'd say wait times are 3-5 minutes at most. And with Society games, that's with some people who are less than experts with the game.

And now that I finally played Draw Steel, I played starting characters and found it was about 5 minutes between rounds. I expect it would take more time as you level up, but I never felt like things were dragging.

The Draw Steel fights we had were typically 4 rounds give or take one, and that's been my experience with Pathfinder as well. Heck, I'm playing 5E tonight and that's how long most of our combats have gone.

 

[Retreater]

That was high level 3E combat. I wonder what levels you're running at and how many players. I have run up to level 8 and played Pathfinder Society adventures up to only level 6, but ... I'd say wait times are 3-5 minutes at most. And with Society games, that's with some people who are less than experts with the game.

We're 8th level in Pathfinder 2. I can tell you precisely what the problem is.
You have to roll checks multiple times in a round to see if things work.
Like, the gunslinger ends up making 3-4 attacks a round. Then he has to make an Intimidation check when he reloads his gun. Then he gets to shift 2 squares as a free action.
And then roll to see if the enemies are still bleeding, and they all act on separate turns. So if you have 8 enemies, that's 8 monster activations with 3 actions.
And most of the stuff that you roll doesn't actually matter. You roll to Intimidate to reload your gun, and you're rolling just to reload your gun. You don't care if they're actually Intimidated or not.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Yes. I'm finding that "highly tactical" alone isn't enough to hold my interest for a long term campaign. There are not enough potential actions, diversity in the monsters, or battlefield situations in the minds of men to hold my attention for 1+ years of play.

I'm not holding up 5e D&D as some pinnacle of great game design. But I will say that I've never had to wait 28 minutes between my turns in 5e.

Oh, I have had to wait a half hour between turns in 5e. Repeatedly.

 

[Simon The Hunter]

When I first read PF2e rules I was excited and invested heavily. 5ish years later and I find it tiresome and restrictive and (in my own personal opinion) has waaaaay too many character options. Draw Steel feels lighter yet still tactical.

 

[payn]

When I first read PF2e rules I was excited and invested heavily. 5ish years later and I find it tiresome and restrictive and (in my own personal opinion) has waaaaay too many character options. Draw Steel feels lighter yet still tactical.

See how it is on 5 years.

 

[Thomas Shey]

We're 8th level in Pathfinder 2. I can tell you precisely what the problem is.
You have to roll checks multiple times in a round to see if things work.
Like, the gunslinger ends up making 3-4 attacks a round. Then he has to make an Intimidation check when he reloads his gun. Then he gets to shift 2 squares as a free action.
And then roll to see if the enemies are still bleeding, and they all act on separate turns. So if you have 8 enemies, that's 8 monster activations with 3 actions.
And most of the stuff that you roll doesn't actually matter. You roll to Intimidate to reload your gun, and you're rolling just to reload your gun. You don't care if they're actually Intimidated or not.

I'll just note again I never saw that much time taken in PF2e, and I played two campaigns up to 20th level (including one with hybrid characters who are "busier" than normal ones) so there's go to be something more to it than that.

 

[CommodoreKong]

When I first read PF2e rules I was excited and invested heavily. 5ish years later and I find it tiresome and restrictive and (in my own personal opinion) has waaaaay too many character options. Draw Steel feels lighter yet still tactical.

Yeah after playing PF2 for a few years it feels a bit too restrictive and over designed.

I had my Draw Steel session 0 last week, I’ll be doing session 1 next week. Looking forward to seeing how it plays.

 

[Aldarc]

See how it is on 5 years.

Yeah, five years of "playtesting" in the field generally does a better job of exposing the strengths and weaknesses of a game while giving enough time (usually) for the "Shiny!" factor to wear off.