D&D 5E What happens if other gaming companies don't have time for WoTc?

[Jester David]

I think a DnD product is such a huge profit maker that it would be unusual for a third party to say no. Green Ronin shut down their own stuff for 9 months so that they create Out of the Abyss and the Sword Coast book. Much to the chagrin of those of us who have been waiting for products Green Ronin has been working on for years.

Green Ronin talked about that in their seminar. The money was nice, but what really sold them was the chance to work with all the demon lords. If the story isn't right, they'd be less incentive to try and work it into their schedule.

 

[Doctor Futurity]

The current 3PP working with WotC are all founded by former WotC employees and free lancers. There are a lot of them out there, and plenty of other proficient starving game designers who are more than capable of working for WotC that this strikes me as a non-issue. If WotC runs short on a pool of available 3PP or free lancers to do the work, then the industry....and hobby....will be facing much larger problems than just staffing issues for WotC at that point, because the shortage could only be presaged by a serious downturn in hobby interest and the available pool of competent creatives willing to work for money.

(EDIT: I mean, think of it this way...they're getting what would normally be regarded as Direct Competition to do work for them. When direct competitors can't will do work for you, that's a sign you're top dog and the prestige value of doing a project for the top dog far outweighs the competition you'll experience with your own products; there are plenty of other competent publishers and designers out there who aren't competition and can--and often have--written for WotC before).

 

[Doctor Futurity]

Green Ronin talked about that in their seminar. The money was nice, but what really sold them was the chance to work with all the demon lords. If the story isn't right, they'd be less incentive to try and work it into their schedule.

So we know that lore+money works for Green Ronin.

I bet in 1-2 years we might see what Paizo's price is, too.

 

[Jester David]

The current 3PP working with WotC are all founded by former WotC employees and free lancers. There are a lot of them out there, and plenty of other proficient starving game designers who are more than capable of working for WotC that this strikes me as a non-issue. If WotC runs short on a pool of available 3PP or free lancers to do the work, then the industry....and hobby....will be facing much larger problems than just staffing issues for WotC at that point, because the shortage could only be presaged by a serious downturn in hobby interest and the available pool of competent creatives willing to work for money.

(EDIT: I mean, think of it this way...they're getting what would normally be regarded as Direct Competition to do work for them. When direct competitors can't will do work for you, that's a sign you're top dog and the prestige value of doing a project for the top dog far outweighs the competition you'll experience with your own products; there are plenty of other competent publishers and designers out there who aren't competition and can--and often have--written for WotC before).

The issue isn't available freelancers. Or less so available freelancers. It's available editors, artists, cartographers, and people to do layout and publishing. On time. In print.

There are lots of people out there who can write, and lots of 3rd parties who publish their own stuff. But people who can get things out in a one-month window, in colour, and on bookshelves is much smaller. Green Ronin and Kobold Press could throw freelancers at a project to get it written or even edited, but someone still has to make it look like a book.

So we know that lore+money works for Green Ronin.

I bet in 1-2 years we might see what Paizo's price is, too.

If given enough notice Paizo might do it. They'd need to know ahead of time so they can leave a gap in their schedule. I imagine a lot of the Paizo staff would love to work on an adventure with some D&D lore again, so it's not out of the question. It's just a matter of them having enough time.

 

[Tony Vargas]

These companies seem to be going in their own direction with Kickstarters and campaign settings so what happens if they hit a sweet spot and become so busy with their own stuff, they don't have time to do stuff for Wizards anymore? Since Wizards don't have much of a staff who would then tow the line?

I doubt it'd ever be an issue. There's a lot more designers, would-be designers, game companies, and would-be-game-companies out there then WotC is likely to have D&D projects at the current pace. They can afford to pick and choose someone capable of delivering the quality of writing & design that D&D fans expect (not difficult, really, so long as they do, indeed toe the line).
They have a large pool of known-quantity former employees to bring in as freelancers, too.

I don't see any big risk in the 'outsourcing' model.

 

[Fildrigar]

I think a DnD product is such a huge profit maker that it would be unusual for a third party to say no. Green Ronin shut down their own stuff for 9 months so that they create Out of the Abyss and the Sword Coast book. Much to the chagrin of those of us who have been waiting for products Green Ronin has been working on for years.

Note that Green Ronin has had a string of excellent products that were being worked on concurrently with Out of the Abyss. The entire company didn't cease everything they were working one to get OotA/SCAG out the door. Fantasy Age, Titansgrave, and who knows what else is about to come out.

 

[transtemporal]

These companies seem to be going in their own direction with Kickstarters and campaign settings so what happens if they hit a sweet spot and become so busy with their own stuff, they don't have time to do stuff for Wizards anymore? Since Wizards don't have much of a staff who would then tow the line?

I assume that these are contracted commitments so it would be pretty unethical to de-prioritise WotCs product to work on their own (even though theoretically the WotC product might be in competition with their own product). I actually wonder if those contracts have a profit-sharing arrangement. That would be a real sign the industry has matured.

 

[Corpsetaker]

ICV2 checks with distributors and retail channel shops. It has something like 75% participation from the LGS marketplace. They're getting raw sales numbers, collating them, and ranking the results.

They don't release the total results... just the analysis from them.
They do this 3-4 times a year, every year, for the last decade on.

Amazon's source numbers are also concealed, but the rankings (the results) aren't. Week of release, D&D 5E PH hit the number one slot on their games and toys ranking, and the number 3 slot on overall sales via Amazon. Pathfinder had previously hit and held #1 in the G&T list, without hitting the top 10 on the overall sales... which implies a rather large difference.

And then, there's the corporate sales reports. Paizo doesn't release theirs, as they're not publicly traded; wizards does, and 5E was HUGE. Freaking astonishingly big. Numbers that imply an initial print run in the high 5-digit range, and note that it went to reprint within the quarter.

We have enough measures to know that D&D is stomping pathfinder in the market performance. In part, by not marketing to the same segment.

And that's without the subsidiary licensing - D&D has a huge external contract revenue stream for the videogames. Stupidly huge numbers. Pathfinder, less so... their licensee doesn't seem to have released it yet.

ICV2 is useless in the argument because Paizo sell most of their products through their online store. I've seen this argument used before and it doesn't apply here.

I am also pretty sure WoTc don't have a breakdown of each product and what it is making. You more than likely will be seeing one number which will most likely reflect everything as a whole. I bet that Magic makes up 95% of those figures.

 

[transtemporal]

I doubt it'd ever be an issue. There's a lot more designers, would-be designers, game companies, and would-be-game-companies out there then WotC is likely to have D&D projects at the current pace. They can afford to pick and choose someone capable of delivering the quality of writing & design that D&D fans expect (not difficult, really, so long as they do, indeed toe the line).
They have a large pool of known-quantity former employees to bring in as freelancers, too.

I don't see any big risk in the 'outsourcing' model.

Are you kidding? Outsourcing creative work is a huge risk. The risk is if you select the wrong partner, your product is dead in the water before its even launched. That's why the number of go-to partners they work with is very small.

 

[Tony Vargas]

A risk is only as huge as what you invest in it. The capital outlay to farm out an AP can't be huge, nor does the fate of the property ride on the success/failure/reception of a single adventure.