D&D General What if Critical Role had stuck with Pathfinder? Or 4E?

[Mordhau]

Both Pathfinder and 4e are probably too complex too really take off in streaming.

Now if they had moved to 13th Age, a simpler game that is better suited to the kinds of games they play than 5e...?

Maybe it would still have taken off, but the reality is that consumers are brand obsessed and we live in a time where the cachet of a long standing brand or franchise has become absolutely everything, so the D&D brand association may been necessary.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Kingmaker PFP games were some of the first major Let's Plays of TTRPGs.

 

[darjr]

Ah. Here is the thread.

The PHB topped Amazon sales rank and bobbled up near the top.

And here is the bit about historical 4e PHB sales rank and PFCRB's.

Its dipping a little bit

#4/#9/#1

It is hard to compare to past releases, but through the way-back machine, I was able to find out that (for bestsellers) the:

4E PHB did get up to 33, fell to 54. then plumeted.

PFCRB got up to 369 (and maybe a bit higher, based on what I poasted above), but seemed to stay in the hundreds longer.

So the starter set, which I think got into the top and 10 and is now at 199, looks good by those numbers.

The PHB is something else. The difference in sales as you move into single digits is massive.

D&D 3E/3.5 - 5E's Initial Raw Sales Numbers Stronger Than 3E's!

It seems that the initial sales of D&D 5th Edition are very strong. Asked about how they compare to 3E and 4E, WotC's Mike Mearls says that "Raw numbers are stronger, but that's not the complete picture. end of year 1 is the key." The Player's Handbook has now topped the hardcover nonfiction...

www.enworld.org

 

[darjr]

And for further perspective here are some numbers about older editions from Ben Riggs.

D&D General - The Sales of D&D vs. AD&D vs. AD&D 2nd Edition

The 2nd edition of AD&D sold well when it was released. Combined, the Dungeon Master’s Guide and Player’s Handbook sold over 400,000 copies in their first year. That’s a lot of books. Not the most ever sold by TSR, but a lot. To give some historical comparison, the 1981 D&D Basic Rules Set sold...

www.enworld.org

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

No. Not at all. There's two scenarios that are possible. Either, as others have stated, it's a symbiotic relationship, 5E and CR boosting each other into the stratosphere; or the success of 5E is due to CR being a phenomenon. In no world is it "CR is only popular because of 5E".

I wouldn’t say it only popular, but it is quite possible that CR benefitted greatly from the success of 5e. The millions of people 5e brought to play start to look for examples on how to play and they found CR.

the only safe statement is to say we don’t know. Because neither you nor I really know. I think the evidence points away from what you suggest, but I can’t prove anything and neither can you.

And CR is not the cultural phenomenon you seem to think it is. Everyone I know knows what D&D is now and about its popularity. None of them knew what Critical Role was until I told them about the Cartoon. It is a bid deal in our circles. But outside of that, not really.

5E would still be the number one RPG without CR, but it would not be the juggernaut it is now without CR.

I guess that is your opinion. But like I said, we do t really know the truth of it. I suspect 5e would be widely popular without critical role.

 

[Smackpixi]

I think a better question is, “What if they’d gone with some other story or character driven ttrpg or some b/x clone” Neither Pathfinder nor 4e were ever going to find the widespread appeal 5e has. Both are more about precision and fussiness at their core than going with whatever’s fun. People around here will litigate systems and rules, but the world of new players that have arrived in the past 6-8 years run the gamut from numbers dorks to rule zero whatevers and 5e accommodates both, so it’s been a popular fit For many.

But, to the question at hand, I think (speaking as not one) CR’s fans like the story and character driven stuff CR does, the game mechanics, even if they dork out over them, are very secondary. Dice rolling adds drama, and rules a structure, but man, isn’t the real question what if they did it dungeon world, or b/x or…?

 

[Oofta]

I think a better question is, “What if they’d gone with some other story or character driven ttrpg or some b/x clone” Neither Pathfinder nor 4e were ever going to find the widespread appeal 5e has. Both are more about precision and fussiness at their core than going with whatever’s fun. People around here will litigate systems and rules, but the world of new players that have arrived in the past 6-8 years run the gamut from numbers dorks to rule zero whatevers and 5e accommodates both, so it’s been a popular fit For many.

But, to the question at hand, I think (speaking as not one) CR’s fans like the story and character driven stuff CR does, the game mechanics, even if they dork out over them, are very secondary. Dice rolling adds drama, and rules a structure, but man, isn’t the real question what if they did it dungeon world, or b/x or…?

I suspect we'd be asking Critical What? The stars have to align just right for any stream to hit it big. But even if it had been a hit I think whatever game they chose would have gotten a minor bump while D&D sales would have seen minimal drop.

 

[TerraDave]

Ah. Here is the thread.

The PHB topped Amazon sales rank and bobbled up near the top.

And here is the bit about historical 4e PHB sales rank and PFCRB's.

D&D 3E/3.5 - 5E's Initial Raw Sales Numbers Stronger Than 3E's!

It seems that the initial sales of D&D 5th Edition are very strong. Asked about how they compare to 3E and 4E, WotC's Mike Mearls says that "Raw numbers are stronger, but that's not the complete picture. end of year 1 is the key." The Player's Handbook has now topped the hardcover nonfiction...

www.enworld.org

This was bit head spinning, then I looked at the thread and figured it out.

The original thread were I tracked the PHBs emergence as a 1 seller, of all books, well before CR, was inartfully merged into another, but it was certainly huge out of the gate. Totally different then 4e.

4e had streaming play, a lot. It’s an ok system for it. PF would seem fairly terrible, just too crunchy. 5e is a very natural fit.

 

[Paulun15]

I don't know how much of their success you can also put down to the pandemic. Lots of people (and gamers) effectively cut off from their games and friends, with lots of time, watching anything gaming related on streaming platforms, etc. If CR launches during "normal" times, it probably has much less impact or goes largely unnoticed. Same with DnD spiking in popularity. People picking it up based on the above streaming options, plus various VTTs. But ultimately who knows. Mostly right place, right time (for both).

You do realize CR did launch during "normal" times. They first started streaming their season 1 campaign in 2014/15. Quite a few years before the pandemic.

 

[HammerMan]

I suspect we'd be asking Critical What? The stars have to align just right for any stream to hit it big. But even if it had been a hit I think whatever game they chose would have gotten a minor bump while D&D sales would have seen minimal drop.

This.

As much as I loved 4e and wish there were more of it in 5e, I don;t think any of it would have happened with out the perfect storm of events.