D&D 5E What if the D&D Core outsells the revised D&D Core?

[darjr]

That is probably the best description of what constitutes an edition change that I have read.

Yea. I’m noting it down.

Works too with Basic vs others versions of D&D too. And Call if Cthulhu or Vampire or GURPS or Hero

 

[Parmandur]

We could, but I believe that is much less likely than people calling it 6e, even if it doesn't warrant that description, IMO.

I honestly think that is precisely what we will see in 2024: a new Core set of books acknowledged as 6E by WotC, but that will work smoothly with a mixed 2014/2024 options table. It's very doable because of the exception based ruleset with a modular nature.

 

[Yaarel]

I honestly think that is precisely what we will see in 2024: a new Core set of books acknowledged as 6E by WotC, but that will work smoothly with a mixed 2014/2024 options table. It's very doable because of the exception based ruleset with a modular nature.

What advantage does WotC gain by calling it 6e?

Heh, as far as I can tell, they will ambiguously call it the "anniversary edition", without committing themselves to a "number".

 

[Parmandur]

What advantage does WotC gain by calling it 6e?

Heh, as far as I can tell, they will ambiguously call it the "anniversary edition", without committing themselves to a "number".

At the moment, nothing, hence their focus on assuring us that they will be compatible, and demonstrating they all be with products like Monsters of the Multiverse. But once they have established that the rules are really compatible, confirming that it is 6E will be worth some sales.

 

[Yaarel]

At the moment, nothing, hence their focus on assuring us that they will be compatible, and demonstrating they all be with products like Monsters of the Multiverse. But once they have established that the rules are really compatible, confirming that it is 6E will be worth some sales.

So you are saying something like:

The 5e diehards who will stick with 5e will likely also know that it will remain compatible, but everyone else will assume they need to buy the new edition?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

That’s because that is what I’m interested in? What would you do? What do you think WotC would?

Not if you think it’s possible or not.

It’s not like a rocket launch, all or nothing. It’s more like what really happened to the James Webb through no fault of the engineers, it got hit by space debris.

I mean, if it's just what I would do, I would make 6e, and it would be a rebuild of 4e taking lessons from prior editions the way 5e was a rebuild of 3e taking lessons from prior editions. A shiny new coat on a slightly altered core with better (much, much, MUCH better) presentation.

I would also do literally everything in my power to make sure the intro adventures are some of the best adventures ever written for D&D. The kind of thing that people will be converting to other systems because they set a high-water mark for adventure design.

 

[Parmandur]

So you are saying something like:

The 5e diehards who will stick with 5e will likely also know that it will remain compatible, but everyone else will assume they need to buy the new edition?

"Need" is a strong word, but if they make the package attractive enough (tons of new high quality fantasy art, integrating popular rule variants from ten years of supplements, etc...), then they could get some serious buy-in. And people who don't want to buy in will be (relatively) relaxed if they know that they can still show up to games with their old books and not be turned away. We already know from Monsters of the Multiverse what the new approach to Monsters looks like, and...you can use them interchangeable with early 5E stuff.

Maybe they introduce entirely new takes on Raves and Classes for the Core in 6E in 2024, but if Retrograde Rick wants to play a Half-Orc Ranger from his 2014 PHB, I could even see a sidebar in the 2024 books that addresses that with "sure, that will work fine, just take a free Feat at Level 1 tied to Background." Like, a one sentence conversion document could suffice, along as Part 2 of the PHB remains essentially the same (though maybe reworded).

I think they've tipped their hand with the D&D movie previews bow: I think we will see a major preview of the new rules in the Starter Set next month thing into thr movie.

 

[Yaarel]

I think they've tipped their hand with the D&D movie previews bow: I think we will see a major preview of the new rules in the Starter Set next month thing into thr movie.

What kind of new rules do you suspect we will see?

(Druid becoming owlbear is no big deal. It is still the same game engine.)

 

[Parmandur]

What kind of new rules do you suspect we will see?

(Druid becoming owlbear is no big deal. It is still the same game engine.)

From what we have seen so far, the screenshots of the basic rules are rearranged from those in the original Starter Set...the rules thar are identical between the Starter Set, PHB, Basic rules, amd Essentials Kit. So I think we will see the revised core basic rules of the game in their entirety, based on nesrly a decade of feedback and Sage Advice work.

The Pregens might have some surprises in store, but I'm not certain of that.

We do know that the pregens have cameos in the new movie, and the box people.will be directed to buy as gifts after the movie comes out will have the new Core rule revisions (not tha tI expect anything fundamental there, just recorded for clarity).

 

[Yaarel]

the screenshots of the basic rules are rearranged from those in the original Starter Set...

the rules that are identical between the Starter Set, PHB, Basic rules, and Essentials Kit.

So I think we will see the revised core basic rules of the game in their entirety, based on nearly a decade of feedback and Sage Advice work.

Wow. So you are expecting some game engine updates?

Things like clarifying unarmed strike versus natural weapon versus melee weapon attack?

The rearrangements could be cosmetic for ease of access. But you suspected they add, delete, and or tweak rules?



I agree the anniversary edition will include updates based on Sage Advice. Sage Advice tried as much as possible to stick with the rules as written, but the anniversary is an opportunity to clarify and tweak the rules as written.

 

[Parmandur]

Wow. So you are expecting some game engine updates?

Things like clarifying unarmed strike versus natural weapon versus melee weapon attack?

The rearrangements could be cosmetic for ease of access. But you suspected they add, delete, and or tweak rules?

I really don't expect any fundamental changes, but things like you suggest there certainly seem plausible. I'd look at the 38 pages of the Sage Advice Compendium for suspects for rewriting (though again, not at a fundamental level). But we do know own from the screenshits that the new Starter Set is shaking things up in that core area, and I suspect it's what we will see reprinted in the nee Core books.

 

[Yaarel]

I suspect WotC will never call the anniversary edition "5.5".

In the past designers regretted doing "3.5" in hindsight. They felt it would be better to just plan toward a new edition with substantial changes.

So, it will either be 5e or 6e − or a noncommittal "anniversary edition".

 

[MGibster]

This sort of thing isn't without precedent...I mean, "New Coke" was a thing that happened. But it would have to be a royal flop, on the same magnitude as New Coke. Unlikely, but possible I suppose.

I would argue that D&D 4th edition was a pretty big flop.

What advantage does WotC gain by calling it 6e?

Calling it 6th edition helps new players avoid any confusion on which set of rules they're buying.

 

[Zardnaar]

Fairly simple if it tanks we get 6E eventually. What form 6E will be no idea.
If it tank they'll purge whatever turns people off or whatever they percieve turns people off.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

What kind of new rules do you suspect we will see?

(Druid becoming owlbear is no big deal. It is still the same game engine.)

I mean, we already know some of the changes. "Race" will become "Ancestry" and will (to some extent or another) de-emphasize rigid ability score associations, for example. And it's pretty clear they're switching to PB/LR resources rather than SR resources, even if they haven't explicitly said that.

As for probable changes, I expect:

• A major rework of the Ranger class. This is the one class they've repeatedly and explicitly said has issues, talking about player feedback over the course of years with multiple attempts to fix it. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of the bigger secondary reasons for a revision, because they don't want to issue major errata for the PHB but aren't happy with the existing Ranger.
• Partial reworks of (in order of likelihood and severity) the Warlock, Monk, Sorcerer, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard classes. Warlocks are very likely to get tweaks because of the shift to PB/LR, which will require their pact magic to adapt. Wizards, although they don't really need a rework, are somewhat notorious for having few class features and not really expressing their theme of "scholarly hermetic mage," so a minor touch-up to address this could be included. More or less, the first three are "probable rework of varying degrees" while the latter three are "possible rework of varying degrees."
• Heavy to moderate reworks of several subclasses, but particularly the Champion, Berserker, Beast Master, Four Elements, and (possibly) Circle of the Moon. All of these have gotten criticism at some point, or have proven to be below par compared to subsequent options, or have some kind of mechanical wrinkle that would welcome changes.
• Changes to some feats, possibly trying to beef up (or trim out) some of the "bad" feats and bring down the power of some of the "strong" feats.
• Changes to some equipment, possibly removing redundant items like the trident, or finding ways to make them distinctive/worthwhile.
• Under-the-hood changes to certain monster math, hard to predict exactly what because 5e monster math isn't exactly transparent, but I expect at least SOME changes here.
• Reworking several spells, probably making more spells depend on Concentration than current. Might or might not see some shuffling of spell lists.

In other words, it will be "backwards-compatible" in the way 3e and 3.5e were: a lot of stuff will work essentially identically, and you don't truly need to rewrite your character sheet if you happen to be using the "old" version of something. All the old adventures should work with either no changes or very minimal changes, they just might not be optimal. But those old things won't be supported anymore.

I suspect WotC will never call the anniversary edition "5.5".

In the past designers regretted doing "3.5" in hindsight. They felt it would be better to just plan toward a new edition with substantial changes.

So, it will either be 5e or 6e − or a noncommittal "anniversary edition".

If they don't actually call it 5.5e, then yes, calling it D&D 50th Anniversary Edition or "5th Edition 50th Anniversary" or something like that is almost certainly what they'll do. Which means we'll probably end up calling it 5.50 or the like.

 

[delericho]

It just struck me, what if WotC revises the core books but the originals continue to sell like they do now? What happens if they outperform the new core books? What happens if they out preform them a lot?

When the new books are released, the old ones will be removed from production. Indeed, that will happen some time before 5.5e releases, in the hope that any stocks out there will be depleted before the release. So they shouldn't be in competition with each other.

As for the sales comparison: with one exception, each time they've put out a PHB it has sold fewer copies than its predecessor, so it wouldn't be unexpected with the move to 5.5e. That said, the one exception I mentioned is 5e, and it has been selling ridiculously well for years now, so we're in unprecedented times... so who knows?

But if 5.5e does basically tank, and we go back to 3e/4e sales numbers, then I rather suspect WotC's response will be to reduce output sharply and just let the game lie fallow for a number of years prior to (maybe) issuing a full-on 6e at some point. Because I no longer believe D&D sales numbers really has much to do with the quality of the game at all - it seems more to be down to something in the culture, and once this moment comes to an end I don't think any edition would really do much better.

(That last, incidentally, is not a comment on the quality of 5e, which is a very good game and a very good edition of the game. It's just that markets are bizarre and fickle things.)

 

[darjr]

Going back to the original 5e plan? That sounds plausible and maybe workable.

 

[darjr]

I resurrect this thread and ask

Now what do you think?

 

[mamba]

What would you do if you were WotC?

What do you think WotC would do?

It just struck me, what if WotC revises the core books but the originals continue to sell like they do now? What happens if they outperform the new core books? What happens if they out preform them a lot?

for how long? I assume at that point 5e can only sell what is in the channel still, WotC won’t be printing more.

Also, that seems pretty far fetched as the 5e books only sell to people new to the hobby, the ones having them already do not need them a second time. Even if only 10% of those upgraded, that would still outsell newcomers (even if all of those went with 5e, which is highly unlikely)

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I resurrect this thread and ask

Now what do you think?

I think they're going to just straight-up replace the line and stop printing the 5E PHB, DMG and MM, as well as ceasing to sell them on D&D Beyond.

I suspect they will still be available through Roll 20 and Fantasy Grounds, and I'm sure they'll remain on D&D Beyond as "Legacy" for people who already have them, they just won't be available for new purchases. Physical copies will still be at your FLGS and Amazon and so on, but no new ones will be printed. People will complain that some handful of subclasses from the 5E PHB which didn't make the cut in the 1D&D PHB aren't available anymore, but WotC will probably put revised versions of them in some early 1D&D book.

If 1D&D is somehow unpopular, they'll probably try and tough it out, and to use marketing and D&D Beyond to try and make up for that. I don't think there's the remotest chance they'll "go back to 5E" or start printing/selling it again. Even if it goes poorly, I'd expect them to just make 7E sooner, or for Hasbro to consider selling WotC, than for them to "go back to 5E".

But as it's a 1E-2E-type edition change, not a 3E-4E one, I think the worst case scenario is slightly less/slower sales than hoped, and any number of schemes can be used to increase adoption. Also don't expect to see any particularly successful attempts to "Pathfinder" the situation, because that only worked because of 4E being so different to 3.XE.