What I'm looking for in commercial adventures
- Thread starter Skyscraper
- Start date
Raven Crowking
First Post
Steel_Wind
Legend
The Adventure Paths that Paizo has been involved with since Shackled City have all evolved significantly over time. With each AP, Paizo has learned more and applied it to the next iteration of an AP.
The so-called "sandboxy" play in Kingmaker has been present in many of the other APs Paizo has done as Paizo under the OGL or under PFRGP. Hell, there is precious little in Bastards of Erebus, the first volume of Council of Thieves, that is not "sandbox" style, for example.
I think this is as much marketing and spin as it is anything else. People believe they know what "an Adventure Path" is like - and so some have stopped looking at them, believing that they "already know" what they are and what they are not.
That said, I think it's pretty clear that many who claim such familiarity, demonstraby don't have it. These products have changed over the course of time -- and not by just a little.
The so-called "sandboxy" play in Kingmaker has been present in many of the other APs Paizo has done as Paizo under the OGL or under PFRGP. Hell, there is precious little in Bastards of Erebus, the first volume of Council of Thieves, that is not "sandbox" style, for example.
I think this is as much marketing and spin as it is anything else. People believe they know what "an Adventure Path" is like - and so some have stopped looking at them, believing that they "already know" what they are and what they are not.
That said, I think it's pretty clear that many who claim such familiarity, demonstraby don't have it. These products have changed over the course of time -- and not by just a little.
Yeah, it must be the presentation then
What must be? Popularity? They were incredibly popular at the time. And the novels were NYT bestsellers.
Skyscraper
Adventurer
Yeah I read'em.
I was referring to what made the Paizo APs popular. Since my arguments about them being innovative were disappearing like ice under a hot sun, I was trying to fall back to another position in my unsuccessful attempts at what made them stand apart from what had made them different from the previous series of modules that didn't have the same look and feel.
Sky
Raven Crowking
First Post
I think they're just popular because they are fantastic.
Well, to an extent because they've not many competitors in the Pathfinder AP department, and they own Pathfinder with its fan base, giving them a market dominance in Pathfinder APs. Apart from that they're (as you say) presented very well and tend to be of above average quality.
Combination of a good business plan and good products. I'd probably argue that the former is more important when it comes to popularity - good products without a good business plan don't become popular, but bad products with a good business plan can do.
Skyscraper
Adventurer
Having worked as a patent agent and thus interacting with products in development just about on a daily basis for the past 20 years, I agree with you. When peopole ask me what about a product is most likely to lead it to commercial failure, I answer: the entrepeneur if he lacks business sense.
Sky
What I would like is a series of encounters that are strung together by the plot of the adventure, but leave it up to the players to come up with how to get there.
Over the last few sessions of my current campaign, the players discussed all sorts of valid options they coudl take in response to a potential goblin attack on the town and they had come up with 4-5 different options, plus some sub-options within those 4-5 for maybe 7-8 different things they could do.
However, no AP or module or single adventure (or DM) can anticipate everything, and the goblins are also much different foes depending on when and where the PCs meet them. So, I think having various events on a timeline (i.e., the goblins will march out of their lair on Day T+5, pause a day to add some ogre allies on Day T+7 at Location X, and then attack the town on Day T+10.) rather than at set encounter locations would be great. You can have a map of the goblin lair, Location X where they add their allies and (of course) the town.
I would not railroad them into actions a (attack ogre allies) and then b (ambush goblin leader at location X in hopes of dividing the force) and then c (finish off remaining goblins) if they decided they want to force the goblins into a siege attack on the town, or wanted to immediately ride out & attack the goblins in their lair.
Over the last few sessions of my current campaign, the players discussed all sorts of valid options they coudl take in response to a potential goblin attack on the town and they had come up with 4-5 different options, plus some sub-options within those 4-5 for maybe 7-8 different things they could do.
However, no AP or module or single adventure (or DM) can anticipate everything, and the goblins are also much different foes depending on when and where the PCs meet them. So, I think having various events on a timeline (i.e., the goblins will march out of their lair on Day T+5, pause a day to add some ogre allies on Day T+7 at Location X, and then attack the town on Day T+10.) rather than at set encounter locations would be great. You can have a map of the goblin lair, Location X where they add their allies and (of course) the town.
I would not railroad them into actions a (attack ogre allies) and then b (ambush goblin leader at location X in hopes of dividing the force) and then c (finish off remaining goblins) if they decided they want to force the goblins into a siege attack on the town, or wanted to immediately ride out & attack the goblins in their lair.
That can certainly work; although you'd then lack really cool defined set piece encounters/events.
If the DM is good enough to come up with those on his own, then it's a good model. But the market for APs is "DMs who want an entire campaign arc which requires little work". Otherwise, they'd design their own. APs are pretty much for those of us who simpy don't have the time to devote to creating our own campaign.
So, yeah - I agree that idea could work; but it would have to be marketted at a different group of people: those DMs who want an AP and also have the time to put extra work into it. I suspect that's a much smaller group than the former, which is why it isn't really done much.
I use APs a lot - running WotBS now, of course - because I really don't have the time to create individual encounters. If I had more time, I think I wouldn't use an AP at all - I'd spend the time creating my own campaign perfect for me and my group. I'm not sure there's enough market for the middle ground option.
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