D&D 5E What is Quality?

Aldarc

Legend
as a very young child I could imagine there was a time I would have said I preferred a McDonalds burger... but I wasn't the best judge of quality.
To be fair, there is a lot of sugar in those McDonald’s burgers. One of my friends once described it by saying that it's not so much of a burger as it is “meat candy.” And the amount of sugar in McDonald's burgers has increased over time.
 
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Oofta

Legend
Is a Ferrari or a Kia a more quality automobile? I see a lot more Kia’s around than Ferrari’s. Does that mean Kia is better quality than Ferrari?

Do you know what they used to say about MG midgets? Fantastic little car, but be sure to get a trailer hitch for a trailer because you'll need that trailer for the money you'll spend keeping the car repaired.

There are relatively objective ways of comparing vehicles that don't apply to products designed to entertain. But ... yet once more ... it's not just about popularity it's about year after year growth that we would not see if 5E was not doing a good job at it's target purpose of entertainment.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
What could I point to for that? It's cool, but it's much harder to communicate that coolness with some specific thing.

The setting is great, integrating some unexpected things (like Drakkenhall being a legitimately-recognized city of the Empire, or the Hellholes and their complex relationship with the Crusader and the Diabolist), and enabling much more interesting active politics (e.g. competitions between the High Druid, the Archmage, and the Diabolist, where nobody is necessarily "in the right") rather than the rather passive and static interactions usually filled by gods or nations, while still supporting the older ways if you really like (since the gods of light and gods of dark exist but aren't particularly specified). Though a lot of people find them weird, the Icon Relationship rolls are actually a really cool method of injecting unexpected story stuff.

I think One Unique Things and its approach to Backgrounds are some of the best, most flavorful and, yes, evocative approaches to character creation and skills, both of which tend to be both dry and really anti-evocative. OUTs are delightful, they can span the spectrum from "just a quirk" to "character- or even campaign-defining element," while having essentially no rules (other than "it doesn't give you combat power.") Its Backgrounds are simultaneously very clear and straightforward, and really good at making characters come to life, as their personal, lived experience matters for what they bring to the group.

Even some of the outright mechanical stuff is super flavorful. The Monk, for example, and its whole "opener/flow/finisher" thing is great, feeling simultaneously flexible and technical.

Is that good enough? Have I cleared your arbitrary and unstated threshold for "evocativeness"?
You're the one who insisted (in multiple posts) that a game could have clarity without sacrificing the sense of "evocativeness" many seem to want. Asking for what you would consider a good example of your claim seems fair to me.

As I said, 13th Age isn't for me (although their version of the MM was very cool), but yes, I see what you're saying. If you could do what they did without needing the narrative mechanics that would be a heck of a game.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Assuming that this theoretical 6E was not only popular but continued to grow year after year, yes I would say it was a quality product whether I personally enjoyed it or not. Entertainment like D&D are there to ... wait for it ... entertain as many people as practical given it's niche market target. Just because I don't find something entertaining doesn't mean that I can't acknowledge that many people do.

I know it's pointless at this point to repeat, but it's not about market share or popularity per se. It's about double digit growth for a decade, it's about the fact that (according to the other thread) that it "has been growing at a50% Compound Annual Growth Rate (CAGR) over the last 3 years." according to this thread.
And all many people in this thread are trying to do is to get you to the point beyond appealing to popularity where you can substantiate the qualities, factors, and merits of D&D 5e that can can explain and account for that growth.
 

Oofta

Legend
And all many people in this thread are trying to do is to get you to the point beyond appealing to popularity where you can substantiate the qualities, factors, and merits of D&D 5e that can can explain and account for that growth.

Look at the discussion on watches. Some people view watches as a timepiece with possible additional functions, as I do. Other people look at it as a piece of jewelry, as bling. Both are valid ways of looking at it. Was my Casio a quality product? Yes. Is the Rolex a quality product? Yes.

This isn't about relative quality. Depending on criteria and preference I'm sure there are higher quality TTRPGs, at least for some people that have just never taken off for one reason or another. Multiple things can be quality products. 🤷‍♂️

But feel free to disagree. Unless you're telling me that if my opinion is not popular that it is a low quality opinion. ;)
 

soviet

Hero
Assuming that this theoretical 6E was not only popular but continued to grow year after year, yes I would say it was a quality product whether I personally enjoyed it or not. Entertainment like D&D are there to ... wait for it ... entertain as many people as practical given it's niche market target. Just because I don't find something entertaining doesn't mean that I can't acknowledge that many people do.

I know it's pointless at this point to repeat, but it's not about market share or popularity per se. It's about double digit growth for a decade, it's about the fact that (according to the other thread) that it "has been growing at a50% Compound Annual Growth Rate (CAGR) over the last 3 years." according to this thread.
From what I can make out that growthrate refers to WotC rather than D&D, although I have viewed the quotes in the thread and not the report itself.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
Do you know what they used to say about MG midgets? Fantastic little car, but be sure to get a trailer hitch for a trailer because you'll need that trailer for the money you'll spend keeping the car repaired.

There are relatively objective ways of comparing vehicles that don't apply to products designed to entertain. But ... yet once more ... it's not just about popularity it's about year after year growth that we would not see if 5E was not doing a good job at it's target purpose of entertainment.
This is another goalpost movement. Now its not about popularity but about sales growth? I thinks folks have demonstrated that low quality things are very popular and sell like hot cakes (see what I did there???). You need more than this to prove quality, instead you are just demonstrating it has value to a lot of people. They are not one and the same.

For the record, I am not saying 5E is low quality, I am saying that popularity and big sales don't make it high quality.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Assuming that this theoretical 6E was not only popular but continued to grow year after year, yes I would say it was a quality product whether I personally enjoyed it or not. Entertainment like D&D are there to ... wait for it ... entertain as many people as practical given it's niche market target. Just because I don't find something entertaining doesn't mean that I can't acknowledge that many people do.

I know it's pointless at this point to repeat, but it's not about market share or popularity per se. It's about double digit growth for a decade, it's about the fact that (according to the other thread) that it "has been growing at a50% Compound Annual Growth Rate (CAGR) over the last 3 years." according to this thread.
The Model T was insanely popular. Massive growth. Intentionally designed to be of lesser quality than other contemporary automobiles.
 

soviet

Hero
Look at the discussion on watches. Some people view watches as a timepiece with possible additional functions, as I do. Other people look at it as a piece of jewelry, as bling. Both are valid ways of looking at it. Was my Casio a quality product? Yes. Is the Rolex a quality product? Yes.

This isn't about relative quality. Depending on criteria and preference I'm sure there are higher quality TTRPGs, at least for some people that have just never taken off for one reason or another. Multiple things can be quality products. 🤷‍♂️

But feel free to disagree. Unless you're telling me that if my opinion is not popular that it is a low quality opinion. ;)
Note again that you keep referring to the D&D product. I suspect the criticisms you have seen question the game design in particular rather than the packaging, marketing, etc. I suspect that if the watch question asked which was the better timepiece or watch mechanism you might see a clearer differential.
 


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