what is the diff between optimized and not??

[GMforPowergamers]

Ok, there has been alot of talk about 'good' builds, 'trap' builds, and 'optimized' builds...and I have to ask, "is it a big diffence?"

Now yes I know the op board over at wizard's sight has builds at 30th level doiing 100+ damage with at wills, but lets for get corner case max level builds for a moment and compair heroic tier optmized Vs not...

I built a party of 2 defenders, a leader and 2 strikers...I made some optimized some not...take a look

[sblock=my work]Level 2 PCs… fighting level 3 soldiers but with CA 19 AC’s, and 15 Nads…

Player A one handed Fighter Dragonborn
20 str expertise long sword weapon focus longsword

Basic attack +13 1d8+6 DPR 8.05
Tide of Iron same
Cleve same

Player B Battle rage two weapon fighter Dwarf
16 str 16 Con 16 wis Dwarven Weapon training, ranger multi class (for math he has temp hp)

Basic attack +8 1d10+5 DPR 5.75
Dual strike +8 1d10+2 (two targets) DPR 4.25
Crushing Surge same as basic

Player C Rouge Human
18 Dex 16 Cha Heavy blade duelist training, back stabber, weapon expertise heavyblade

Sly flourish +11 1d8+7+2d8 DPR 13.85
Piercing strike same but vs NAD DPR 17.95


Player D Warlock Teifling
16 Con 16 cha linguistics, skill focus

Eldritch Blast +4 1d10+3+1d6 DPR 6.35
Hellish rebuke +4 1d6+3+1d6 DPR 5.25


Player E Warlord half orc
18 str 14 Int spike chain training, Armor prof scale

Basic attack +9 2d4+4 DPR 5.1
Viper Strike same
Wolf pack tactics same


Best DPR is Player C at 17.95
Second best is Player A at 8.05
Third best is player D at 6.35
Fourth best is player B with either 5.75 to one or 4.25 to two
Worst is player E with 5.1…

Soldier hp is 8+con+ (8xlevel) so lets give this soldier a 13 con…55hp…

How long does each take to kill it…

Player C 3 rounds
Player A 7 rounds
Player D 9 rounds
Player B 10 rounds
Player E 11 rounds

So if not incliding the rouge (who kills it two of them before the next best can kill one) it seams it is a 4 round difference…
[/sblock]

What is the worst dpr here compared to the second best… 2.95 points…not even 3 pts. (second best becuse my main optimized striker is just shy of double the optimized fighter damage, and more then tripple the worst)


so now I know there are people out there with much better math fu then me...so here is my quastion...how much DPR really matters and how close to optmized is viable... (I do ask if you post lots of numbers and builds to use the sblock like I did)...

I used 2nd level, but feel free to use any heroic levels as long as everyone is on equal footing to start...

 

[pawsplay]

Optimized means optimized in some specific way. In the time I was active on the Character Optimization Boards on wizards.com, the first response to "Can you help me optimize my character?" was usually, "To do what?"

 

[Herschel]

It means different things to different people. In most cases I see online, it seems to mean "How do I do the most damage in a vacuum to a solo/elite/brute".

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Optimized means optimized in some specific way. In the time I was active on the Character Optimization Boards on wizards.com, the first response to "Can you help me optimize my character?" was usually, "To do what?"

Really, optimized comes down to making your character specialize in something, even if that specialization is in being well rounded. Some classes do things better then others. Factotum is optimized at being non-specialized because of the tools they have. I don't think there even was a wizard handbook for 3.5 due to how varied they could be.

Paladin, however, is not so well rounded, and is more specialized. Swift Hunter really is based on one or two things.

In 4e, the emphasis is on the roles; defender, striker, controller, and leader. As such, optimization for those is based on how well you fit your role. A handbook for a striker class would be based on doing damage, because that's what strikers do. Likewise, an optimized defender would be about marking and keeping enemies at bay.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

In 4e, the emphasis is on the roles; defender, striker, controller, and leader. As such, optimization for those is based on how well you fit your role. A handbook for a striker class would be based on doing damage, because that's what strikers do. Likewise, an optimized defender would be about marking and keeping enemies at bay.

ok then, 4 quastions in one... what is the diffrence between an optimized, avrage, and weak member of each role???

Does an optimized striker do so much more damage then an avrage one?
Does an optimized defender defend so much better?

 

[ProfessorCirno]

ok then, 4 quastions in one... what is the diffrence between an optimized, avrage, and weak member of each role???

Does an optimized striker do so much more damage then an avrage one?
Does an optimized defender defend so much better?

Yes.

More then that, 4e hosts itself up as a team based combat game, where each member is meant to contribute as much as they can to the team during the fight. As such, you have a responsibility to your team and to your other players to be good at your job.

If you're in a fight and your leader slacks off, it's not just him that loses fun, but the whole team. 4e has, if anything, made it MORE important to optimize yourself.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Yes.

More then that, 4e hosts itself up as a team based combat game, where each member is meant to contribute as much as they can to the team during the fight. As such, you have a responsibility to your team and to your other players to be good at your job.

If you're in a fight and your leader slacks off, it's not just him that loses fun, but the whole team. 4e has, if anything, made it MORE important to optimize yourself.

but isn't there a 'good enough' cut off point...

again 1-10 do you need to always be a 9-10, or is a 6-7 good enough

 

[Henry]

but isn't there a 'good enough' cut off point...

again 1-10 do you need to always be a 9-10, or is a 6-7 good enough

Others might disagree with me, but in 4E there really aren't very many "total loser" power choices. In other words, just picking from the leader choices in the PHB for example means you will do a decent job at being a buffer and healer. I only know of two or three powers in each class that people widely agree are "sucker" choices -- what's that ranger one, careful strike that only gives a smaqll bonus to hit in exchange for a small amount of damage? There's a fighter power that does similarly, and then some encounters and dailies that are weak for their level - but in general you would have to work really hard to not "fulfill your role."

 

[Rykion]

If you're in a fight and your leader slacks off, it's not just him that loses fun, but the whole team. 4e has, if anything, made it MORE important to optimize yourself.

I find that it is hard to make a character who is bad at his combat role in 4e, at least with the PHB. Combat problems tend to happen when characters aren't fulfilling their role effectively. It often happens when players are still learning, or when they simply aren't paying enough attention to combat. It's also a problem when a player chooses to ignore the combat role his character's class was meant for.

 

[Cadfan]

I can tell you the difference between two example characters, but I can't tell you what the bounds are of "optimized" and "unoptimized." Its too gray of an area. No matter what I set as the lower bounds of "unoptimized," someone will find a way to fall beneath it. And likewise no matter what I set as the upper bounds of "optimized," someone will find some combination of feats, powers, and paragon path abilities that exceeds it.

But if we try to keep things really, simple, like

1. One handed talent fighter with an 18 strength, a +1 bastard sword, weapon focus, and expertise at level 4, versus

2. One handed talent fighter with a 16 strength, a +1 battleaxe, and nothing else,

You get

1. +12 v ac, 1d10+6, versus
2. +9 v ac, 1d10+4

which should be enough to notice.

Against a human berserker, Level 4 Brute, AC 15, HP 66, you'd get expected damage per round (ignoring criticals for the moment because I don't want to spend too much time on this) of

1. 10.35, versus
2. 7.125

in terms of rounds to kill, that's

1. 6.38
2. 9.26

So I think you'd notice that. Not that rounds to kill is the best measure, and not that it isn't possible that the second character could have spent his feats on something worthwhile other than damage. If for example he's rocking out with Toughness, Plate Armor, and Improved Vigor, maybe he's doing just fine in a different way.

For reference, here's the rounds to kill on a Visejaw Crocodile, Level 4 Soldier, AC 20, HP 58

1. 7.76
2. 12.21

Note two things in conclusion though.:

First, the spread will grow as more decisions become possible. More gear will be acquired, more feats taken, and expertise and focus will grow in effect.

Second, at this level, no individual decision completely explains the difference between the characters. Its the sum of all of the decisions. So there's some space for flexibility. This should continue to be true through most of the character's career, with the exception of Expertise, which will eventually become such a big deal that its presence or absence alone will meaningfully and noticeably affect the difference between the characters.