What is the essence of D&D

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
couldn't stop giggling

Do you really not see at all how stuff like this makes it seem like you never interacted with 4e in a way that included giving it anything like a chance, in the first place? It really comes across like you just...decided it was garbage before you even read anything in the book, and went from there.
 

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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
5e people were complaining about Ranger abilities undermining huge amounts of the challenge of travel... LOL - I read that and thought isnt that just a win... like a teleport.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
-the ability to play anything from big damn heroes to scrungey hobos taking jobs to get by in a world that doesn't give a damn and never will (at least at lowish levels)
(Well, the former at high level and the latter at low, at least)
But, 5e, having finally divorced magic items, and thus character wealth, entirely from advancement, really enables the latter to an unprecedented degree, and at all levels.

Think about it, in 4e & 3e you have wealth/level. In 4e, you can turn on inherent bonuses, say screw magic items, be as stingy as you like with treasure - but, the sheer overwhelming ultra-competence of high-level skill bonuses will make the idea of the world treating them as nobodies pretty strained. In 3e, you also nominally have that option, though it's less practical, and, again, high skill checks let the PC shine, and, in fact, /literally make money/ (XOMG! You can, like, make an honest living!) Prior to 3e, magic items were necessary for general functionality in play, and treasure was inconsistently tied to xp/levels in a variety of ways, PCs might be rich, or they might have gold slip through their fingers by the ton, but they'd never be hardscrabble mercenaries their whole career, and, indeed, were expected to be come lords, and land-holders and guild-masters and the like.

In 5e, a high-level PC does not have useful civilian skills - or any skills - amazingly far in advance of an ordinary, particularly skilled professional. But they do have tons of hps. So, if poverty-stricken, the mercenary life is a natural. OK, casters may, depending on the details of the setting, be able to parlay spells into gold in any number of ways. But, also posit a world where honest folk are suspicious/hostile of magic, and, again, it's start blowing things up for those who need merks, or starve. It's really kinda an accomplishment.

Though, TBH, I've yet to try running anything of the sort, nor seen or heard of anyone else doing so, it's a style/sub-genre that is now more doable than ever before.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I explained how it does support that style of play, and reiterated the point that all editions of dnd can be played anywhere on the spectrum from no combat ever to nothing but combat.
I designed a non-combatant princess build for the warlord class and sure in combat it held its own/weight by inspiring allies and the like dodging behind an ally which coincidentally gives the ally an extra attack opportunity but yes the character never hit anyone except ineffectually (giving allies more opportunities coming to the rescue) and was great with rituals and large numbers of skills and picked explicitly for that. So even if the rest of the party was in to combat you weren't a third wheel
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Do you really not see at all how stuff like this makes it seem like you never interacted with 4e in a way that included giving it anything like a chance, in the first place? It really comes across like you just...decided it was garbage before you even read anything in the book, and went from there.
Sounds like he read the book, once. Possibly before the ink dried. (another thing laughably wrong with 4e that got better fairly quickly)
The initial SC rules really were stand-out, obviously, mathematically, borked.

I designed a non-combatant princess build for the warlord class and sure in combat it held its own/weight by inspiring allies and the like dodging behind an ally which coincidentally gives the ally an extra attack opportunity but yes the character never hit anyone except ineffectually (giving allies more opportunities coming to the rescue) and was great with rituals and large numbers of skills and picked explicitly for that. So even if the rest of the party was in to combat you weren't a third wheel
Yeah, and it even got intentional support, later. As did the pacifist cleric build, though it was a little.... IDK... technical about it's pacifism. ;)
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Sounds like he read the book, once.
Eh, they may have read and played a good bit for all we know, but comments like that certainly don't suggest they did so with anything approaching an open mind.

btw, 5e and 4e both let you be big damn heroes or scrungey hobos at low levels. I specified lowish level for a reason.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
btw, 5e and 4e both let you be big damn heroes or scrungey hobos at low levels. I specified lowish level for a reason.
4e, 1st level = 'Heroic' Tier
5e, 1st level = 'Apprentice' Tier

I know, they're just labels, but in both cases they're fairly accurate ones.

But the 5e capacity to fairly seamlessly run a party as nameless hardscrabble adventurers just fighting for their next meal, /their entire careers/, is really something. I mean, you want gritty, there's some grit. And it's not like it's entirely alien to genre, either.
 

Arnwolf666

Adventurer
I damn near drowned because my DM had zero guidelines for a routine tasks and didn't know how to swim... I will take skills and movement guidelines any day of the week

You misunderstand. I mean routine tasks don’t need a task. They pass. Done without even proficiency. I don’t play d&d to pass a check swimming across a pond. Maybe rapids.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Think about it, in 4e & 3e you have wealth/level. In 4e, you can turn on inherent bonuses, say screw magic items, be as stingy as you like with treasure - but, the sheer overwhelming ultra-competence of high-level skill bonuses will make the idea of the world treating them as nobodies pretty strained.
4e characters do eventually become generally competent enough that missing the kick ass would be hard pressed indeed. But you could say adventurer acrobatics is not entertaining with acrobatics for instance. And patching your allies wounds has nothing to do with doing midwifery and similar limits and all that takes is DM decisioning
 


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