Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

[Amhain]

So with in mind, Thor is probably the best model of high level fighter we have in recent narratives.

Thor's a Tempest Cleric/Divine Soul Sorcerer, though.

I'd say Captain America and Hawkeye are both more Fighter than him within the MCU.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I think this actually reflects another part of the problem, a lot of people don’t know what high level looks like, as most fantasy fiction isn’t that high.

I once again point to avengers and other marvel movies, as those may be some of the best narrative inspiration for 11th+ level adventuring.

Except this was never the narrative IME in any edition of D&D the I played in, and in AD&D wizards were even more powerful than in 5E. Of course, I never had an issue with the so-called LFQW problem others felt existed. Now, in BECMI, we got into the Immortals. The type of earth-forming powers and such there was truly godlike and superheroic. 3E had epic levels 21-30 IIRC, and that is where that stuff belongs.

So, IMO, averagers, demigods, etc. are getting into epic levels, what would be 21-30 in 5E. After all, artifact-type powers such as the Infinity Stones is power beyond anything presented in 5E DMG. Sure, high magic in 5E is powerful, but most of it doesn't come close to approaching anything what you see in a lot of the avenger movies.

But hey, that is part of the beauty of D&D. If you think superhero level stuff falls in the 20 and under range, that is your view, but I just don't see it.

 

[Neonchameleon]

It's sort of hard to say, really; the difficulty with "fighters" is that a high-level fighter does very much the same kinds of things as a low-level fighter. I bring up Three Kingdoms and the Illiad because the narrative presents folks like Achilles and Guan Yu as epic heroes that are the pinnacle of fighting prowess running about slaughtering hordes of lesser folks, and because if they're not high-level then I don't know what is.

High level in this case means about level 8 or so. Which is high level by the standards of most people. I might allow 10 for Achilles and 8 for the other heroes. They spent most of their time beating up on normal humans (and to be fair the most martially incompetent of the gods). And when we look at one of the more competent ones, Odysseus, we find how much he and his crew struggled against e.g. Circe or a couple of cyclops.

Meanwhile if we look at e.g. Greek Myth, Hercules was a fighter. If we look at Celtic Myth then CuChulain was a fighter. In the Arthurian myths Galahad's strength "was as the strength of ten because his heart was pure".

And Thor is in no way either a cleric or a sorcerer. He does not cast spells. If he's anything remotely D&D 5e-ish he's a Storm Herald Barbarian, and quite a lot of levels up on Cap.

 

[KnightOfTheGrey]

High level in this case means about level 8 or so. Which is high level by the standards of most people. I might allow 10 for Achilles and 8 for the other heroes. They spent most of their time beating up on normal humans (and to be fair the most martially incompetent of the gods). And when we look at one of the more competent ones, Odysseus, we find how much he and his crew struggled against e.g. Circe or a couple of cyclops.

Meanwhile if we look at e.g. Greek Myth, Hercules was a fighter. If we look at Celtic Myth then CuChulain was a fighter. In the Arthurian myths Galahad's strength "was as the strength of ten because his heart was pure".

And Thor is in no way either a cleric or a sorcerer. He does not cast spells. If he's anything remotely D&D 5e-ish he's a Storm Herald Barbarian, and quite a lot of levels up on Cap.

So how would you define a 20th-level Fighter? I assume we're not going to roll back to 1st edition where different classes had different level caps.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I assume we're not going to roll back to 1st edition where different classes had different level caps.

IIRC only Druids, Assassins, and Monks had level caps, though... Most of the classes could progress to whatever level you wanted to play to.

 

[Minigiant]

A lot of people bring up Achilles as a high level fighter. The thing is he was a demigod (grandson of a titan) who got a magic buff layered on top of that (Likely surviving the buff due to being a demigod). I think a normal human being dipped in Styx would die.

And I'd still put him at level 15+.

I'd more use Hector as a nondivine example of a high level fighter. Him losing because Achilles is resistant to almost all weapon attacks and not winning a grind. He'd be 15+.

Most of the other heroes except Ajax would be level 8-12. Ajax is just a level 15-20 champion fighter.

 

[Minigiant]

IIRC only Druids, Assassins, and Monks had level caps, though... Most of the classes could progress to whatever level you wanted to play to.

Yes, but I believe many classes stopped getting HD and class features around level 8-12.

 

[DND_Reborn]

A lot of people bring up Achilles as a high level fighter. The thing is he was a demigod (grandson of a titan) who got a magic buff layered on top of that (Likely surviving the buff due to being a demigod). I think a normal human being dipped in Styx would die.

And I'd still put him at level 15+.

I'd more use Hector as a nondivine example of a high level fighter. Him losing because Achilles is resistant to almost all weapon attacks and not winning a grind. He'd be 15+.

Most of the other heroes except Ajax would be level 8-12. Ajax is just a level 15-20 champion fighter.

I would certainly put Achilles at 20, Hector at 17-18, Odysseus and Ajax around 15 or so, and most of the others about 8-14.

Yes, but I believe many classes stopped getting HD and class features around level 8-12.

Yep. If your didn't have a level cap, once you reached "name level" (9-11 mostly), you stopped HD and no more CON bonus, and your class features stopped except for higher level spells. There might have been a couple exceptions, but none I can think of off-hand. Your attack tables and saves would keep going up till 16-21 or so and then stopped there.

 

[Neonchameleon]

So how would you define a 20th-level Fighter? I assume we're not going to roll back to 1st edition where different classes had different level caps.

I started an entire thread about that.

But it would have to go beyond someone who swings a sharpened piece of metal at a distance limited by physical reach against targets who have ever escalating hit points and get harder and harder to one-shot. For myself I'd go to myth and look at someone like Hercules or CuChulain.

 

[Garthanos]

Perhaps ironically(in an Morisset sort of way) or not Hercules and Odysseus may well have been the same legendary character from 2 different perspectives and emphasis. Heracles to the Greeks was much smarter than he is currently taken to be those tasks of his included feats of on the fly engineering. The Greeks loved smart guy heros. The romans less so.