What is your way for doing Initiative?

[Blue]

Ok, thanks. One thing I would like to point out is that by re-rolling initiative, it can also work in the caster's favor.

Example: Chill Touch (since someone, I forgot who, brought it up... )

Two effects are dependent on your next turn: 1) the target can't regain hit points and 2) if it is undead, it has disadvantage on attack rolls against you.

Say the first round I am going on 5 and my target (a skeleton) is going on 3.
I cast Chill Touch and hit.
The target takes damage, and when it goes on 3, cannot regain hit points and has disadvantage when it attacks.

The next round the skeleton is going on 6, and I don't go until 2.
Since my turn hasn't started yet, those effects are still in play.
In other words, I benefit from the spell twice!

In the cyclical system as is, I would go first again on 5 and the spell effects would end.

Worst case scenario is I go after the skeleton on the round I cast Chill Touch and then go before it the next round, so I never gain the benefits of the effects. All-in-all, it averages out though.

Yes, by doing BETTER you have a DISADVANTAGE, and by doing WORSE you have an ADVANTAGE. Rather messed up.

And "on average" it does not average out, that's white room thinking that doesn't actually think about actual play. If a spell affects for 0 zero round instead of 1, how often does the foe get that bonus. 100% of the time. If it affects for 2 rounds instead of 1, how often does it get that penalty? It's not 100% unless foes are never killed.

But really, this leads to two undesirable things.

1. Metagame casting, where you'll hold off on single round durations if you rolled poorly and be more likely to use them when you rolled well, since you'll get more bang for the buck from limited resources that way.

2. Every time you cast a spell, the foe fails the save and yet the spell has no effect because of initiative, you get upset players.

 

[Maxperson]

Sorry, I wasn't quite clear. I was talking about how my table handled getting surprised under our Group Initiative house rules.

I understood. I was just pointing out that 5e has a reason for rolling. How do you handle abilities that trigger off of initiative in a surprise round like assassinate and reactions?

 

[Maxperson]

I don't recall if I mentioned this before but for my group, I also have the players declare their actions/intentions before rolling for initiative. Because we re-roll every round it does result in some characters using the Ready action because they might end up having to wait for another character to act. Once actions are declared, they can only change them to Dash, Disengage, Dodge, or not act at all if they change their mind when their turn arrives. I let players coordinate a bit, through a short phrase, such as "I'm fireballing the ledge!" if a caster plans to cast fireball on enemies by the ledge and doesn't want to risk catching a party member. A fighter might decide to Ready his attack for after the fireball has been cast.

I used to have players declare actions ahead of time, but I realized that it just didn't make sense to gimp a PC because the creature he was going to attack moved away. PCs would be able to react and adjust what they were going to do, so I changed it to allow the players to just declare actions when their turn came up.

 

[happyhermit]

It is interesting to hear how many people use the system as is and I am surprised others think there is any difficulty in tracking effects when you re-roll each round. We switched to the custom d6 simply because it makes the countdown faster. Right now no one has more than a +1 so I can start the count at 7, then 6, 5, and so on. We did have a Ranger with 18 Dex and the Alert feat (normally +9) who would have been +3 with this system, but the player got a job and can't make it now. Anyway, we rule a natural roll beats an augmented. So if a player rolls a 3, but gets +1 for a total of 4, any natural roll of 4 goes first. It works very well and is very quick. I don't have to say "ok, 20's or higher", then "15 and up", etc. with one player saying "14" and another saying "12" and a third calling "15", and then remember who called what and remembering which order they go in.
...

The "countdown" isn't the best way IME, it certainly isn't the fastest. You can just go around the table and get everyone's initiative in order. If using P&P (almost always for me) then all you need is a standard sheet of paper or a tall/skinny notepad. If someone rolls high they go near the top, middle-middle and so on, leave plenty of spaces between. You can use the same paper to track HP, conditions, rounds, etc. If using a computer it's even less problematic because you don't have to leave spaces, just insert where applicable.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Yes, by doing BETTER you have a DISADVANTAGE, and by doing WORSE you have an ADVANTAGE. Rather messed up.

And "on average" it does not average out, that's white room thinking that doesn't actually think about actual play. If a spell affects for 0 zero round instead of 1, how often does the foe get that bonus. 100% of the time. If it affects for 2 rounds instead of 1, how often does it get that penalty? It's not 100% unless foes are never killed.

But really, this leads to two undesirable things.

1. Metagame casting, where you'll hold off on single round durations if you rolled poorly and be more likely to use them when you rolled well, since you'll get more bang for the buck from limited resources that way.

2. Every time you cast a spell, the foe fails the save and yet the spell has no effect because of initiative, you get upset players.

Better or worse is subjective in Initiative, it depends entirely on the situation. Sometimes it is better to go later on and sometimes it is better to go earlier. You just never know. Even in the first round, you aren't always better off going first.

To address your other points, it works out fine because:

1. By having my players declare their actions before Initiative is rolled, you can't metagame casting and
2. The spells still have effect, even if it is only partial. In the aforementioned example of Chilling Touch, you are still doing damage. More to the point, none of the players has complained at all about any of it or expressed being upset.

I used to have players declare actions ahead of time, but I realized that it just didn't make sense to gimp a PC because the creature he was going to attack moved away. PCs would be able to react and adjust what they were going to do, so I changed it to allow the players to just declare actions when their turn came up.

I guess I wasn't completely clear about the declarations of actions part. If the character is going to use the Attack action, who they target can be changed on their turn. Likewise, spells can be re-targeted to another creature or point, etc. depending on how the spell works. That solves the issue of a foe dying before a fighter attacks it, for example, and he can still attack another target within his allowed move.

The "countdown" isn't the best way IME, it certainly isn't the fastest. You can just go around the table and get everyone's initiative in order. If using P&P (almost always for me) then all you need is a standard sheet of paper or a tall/skinny notepad. If someone rolls high they go near the top, middle-middle and so on, leave plenty of spaces between. You can use the same paper to track HP, conditions, rounds, etc. If using a computer it's even less problematic because you don't have to leave spaces, just insert where applicable.

Using the d6s sped it up well enough. It would take me longer to go around the room and record a list of who goes when. Like others who use apps, I am writing a script for Excel since that is where I track everything for encounters that will auto-roll and auto-sort Initiative. I have to run the idea by the players first, since they won't be rolling anymore and the script would do it for them. They might not like having that element taking out of their hands--then again-they might. We'll see. Failing that, even copying and pasting a list in the spreadsheet for Initiative would be similar to what you suggest, and might be quicker. I might try it and see how that works out as well.

 

[Blue]

Better or worse is subjective in Initiative, it depends entirely on the situation.

The game grants a bonus to going sooner. It seems the designers think that generally it's better to go sooner. Especially since you can ready an action and go later if you want. (Which is not the same as your full turn, but is something.)

1. By having my players declare their actions before Initiative is rolled, you can't metagame casting and

Good, that addresses that concern.

I wish you had addressed the point that it doesn't "average out" as well.

2. The spells still have effect, even if it is only partial.

No, not always. For example, Command lasts 1 round. If that's up and they never got an action to do the Command, nothing happens.

But really, it feels like you're rationalizing. "My change didn't make you waste your ENTIRE action so it's okay."

No, it's still not okay to me as a player.

 

[LordEntrails]

Thats a whole lots of going on to so miss the point. ...
But, you do you.

And I don't see you getting my point either. Seems time to move on.

So he metagames because he's got the Monster Manual memorized?

Look, I understand that you're happy with rerolling initiative, but the behavior you're describing from your player here requires knowledge of AC and hp to make those sorts of predictions. If he's using that at the table to the extent that you're describing, it's just metagaming. The solution isn't to roll initiative every round. If as soon as you put the figurine on the table your players know it's hp, AC, saving throws, etc., the solution to that isn't to roll more initiative dice. It's to prevent that metagame knowledge from being useful. The solution is to mix things up. Use Ogre stats for Human warriors, or Hobgoblin stats, or Bugbears, or whatever.

If your table likes it, do it. I'm absolutely not saying that you shouldn't play the game the way you want. That doesn't mean that initiative is not being overvalued or overestimated at your table.

Yes it is metagaming. Something I can't image any RPG player that has a good memory and has played for years probably can avoid. Metgaming is not an evil word or act, not when it is done because of experience. As for your suggestion, I already said I do those types of things. But, after a round of combat or two, people learn, "Oh, Tom rolled a 15 and missed, I rolled a 17 and hit. I guess the AC is 16 or 17." I don't have a problem with my players being intelligent. But really, lets not debate that.

As for the value of initiative at my table... yea, you are overvaluing it not us. This is a thread on initiative options, hence why its the focus of my comments. Understand how much time and effort has gone into using re-roll initiative at our table; two button clicks and a couple of milliseconds at the start of every round. Either you missed the part about us using Fantasy Grounds or you don't understand how easy and powerful it is. All I did to set this up was click on the 'options' icon and then toggle re-roll init. FG then re-rolls initiative following the last person's turn on the combat tracker automatically and re-orders the combat tracker faster than we can see.

So yea, two clicks once per campaign and a few milliseconds per round are an acceptable value for the benefits we get.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

The game grants a bonus to going sooner. It seems the designers think that generally it's better to go sooner. Especially since you can ready an action and go later if you want. (Which is not the same as your full turn, but is something.)

Good, that addresses that concern.

I wish you had addressed the point that it doesn't "average out" as well.

No, not always. For example, Command lasts 1 round. If that's up and they never got an action to do the Command, nothing happens.

But really, it feels like you're rationalizing. "My change didn't make you waste your ENTIRE action so it's okay."

No, it's still not okay to me as a player.

Actually, Command still works. "The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or follow the command on its next turn."
Notice it is its next turn, it has nothing to do with when your turn comes, ends, or starts. If you Command a creature to Flee and it goes after you that round, it Flees then; if it already went this round, it Flees the next round.

So, I am not rationalizing, I am simply stating that what you might think is an important issue, is really not a big deal. Which is why I said none of the players have had a problem with it in practice, either. People talk about whiteroom analysis, but until you try something new you really can't know how it will work. We've tried it, it works fine. And if it isn't okay with you as a player, then don't do it in your group.

 

[Blue]

Actually, Command still works. "The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or follow the command on its next turn."
Notice it is its next turn, it has nothing to do with when your turn comes, ends, or starts.

You're absolutely correct - as long you willfully ignore the the other half of the equation that was already pointed out.

It also has a duration of 1 round. Spell effects don't last past the end of their duration. When Fear ends, you don't keep running. When Command ends, you don't take the action.

Also, duration is not the only effect that lasts until the start (or end) of your next turn, so even if this particular case is wrong it doesn't matter.

So, I am not rationalizing,

If you read what I wrote, the rationalizing was about where you were equating only losing part of your spell being the same as getting your full spell. I don't see that addressed so the comment about rationalizing still stands.

I am simply stating that what you might think is an important issue, is really not a big deal. Which is why I said none of the players have had a problem with it in practice, either. People talk about whiteroom analysis, but until you try something new you really can't know how it will work. We've tried it, it works fine. And if it isn't okay with you as a player, then don't do it in your group.

Ah yes, the "your point doesn't agree with what I'm saying, so feel free not to use it for your group". That's a fine and true statement, almost goes without saying. But doesn't invalidate the points being made.

 

[smbakeresq]

The Greyhawk Initiative here. http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/greyhawk-initiative