D&D General What it means for a race to end up in the PHB, its has huge significance

[Yaarel]

the human serving as the 'baseline' jack of all trades who could turn to be good at any of them was a much more notable feature when all the other species came with their own pros AND CONS, you could be nearly as good a mage as the elf was without the constitution penalty, or fight mostly as good as the dwarf without tanking your charisma, now all the penalties have been removed being 'the baseline' doesn't mean what it used to.

I like the 2024 Human.

Its extra Inspiration, connotes aggressive competitiveness in combat, skill contests, and so on. It also connotes a sense of destiny, which is human hope and meaningfulness.

I think the extra skill, should be a choice of skill or tool, since the reallife human species is quintessential tool users. But it is the right idea, relating to cultural knowledge transmission.

The extra feat makes sense for specialization, but also is a place for any superhuman legendary humans.

 

[Veltharis ap Rylix]

But, that works both ways. The current system does not support the "pick a parent" system. Since "Pick a parent" results in mixed heritage characters that are virtually indistinguishable from 2014 races, I'm failing to see the problem.

Because as shocking as this may be to hear, I care about more than just the mechanics. I care about how those mechanics are derived and I care about the story that process tells.

The story that "pick-a-parent" tells is:
"Oh, you want to play a Khoravar? Well, that's basically just an elf anyway, so here's an elf statblock - you lose the 'human' part because you don't get Skill Versatility anymore, but you get everything else the old 'half-elf' used to have plus the rest of the fancy elf traits on top of that, so really you're coming out ahead there. Just say your ears are a bit less pointy and you're good to go."
"Oh, you want to play a Jhor'guntaal? Congrats, you're an orc now! I guess you can file down your tusks a bit if you want, but doesn't that feel so much better than pretending your character was part human?"
"Mixed ancestry is fine, so long as only one of those ancestries matters."

The fact that the nearly all of the traits of the '14 "half-elf" come from the '14 elf mechanics is a failure of the 2014 design (and a sign of how non-existent '14 human mechanics were), not proof that they should simply be elves with the serial numbers filed off. I don't want to simply replicate the '14 "half-elf" mechanics. If I did, I'd just use continue using the old "half-elf" - my old books aren't going anywhere, and it's supposed to still be compatible.

What I want is a '24 Khoravar (or insert other appropriate name here) that blends traits from both the '24 human and '24 elf into a cohesive and distinct whole that is roughly in line with the current design for species mechanics, and/or an (optional) set of guidelines detailed within the core rules showing the process of how to do that myself so that any mixed ancestry can get the same treatment for those who find "pick-a-parent" insufficient for its stated purpose.

I know the mechanics of the "half-elf" have historically been rather boring - I am not pretending otherwise. So let's have a discussion about how to make them exciting, not throw them in the bin and tell every Khoravar player that they should be happy to be playing elves now.

Personally, I honestly don't care about specific mechanics, I prefer to discus tropes, vibes, and the like. Because, if we're going to talk about the mechanics...

Then we have to address the elephant in the room. Mainly, the greatest mechanical appeal of the half-elf was the fact that they had +2 CHA and two floating +1s (total of 4, matched only by mountain dwarves). Not only did 5e have an abundance of CHA classes, but half-elf was seen as the bard-elf type (as opposed to high elf wizard, wood elf ranger/druid, and drow assassin). Thus the +2 CHA when most elves are surprsingly non-charisma. The skill versatility as well was a nod to bard being the half-elf signature class rather than human ancestry.

Now? You can't get a total of +4 stats on a species, and everyone has flexible stats. This immediate association with bard isn't a big deal anymore, given that 5.5e has moved away from molding their species into having a singular favored class direction. Immediately, what has proped up the half-elf's "mechanical identity," to borrow a term from elsewhere on these forums, has immediately dissolved. Darkvision and a resistance are common other species. Which means the only thing really of note about the half elf? Two extra skills. Ngl, nothing to sneer at, but nothing amazing either. And as I posted earlier, it's trivial to make a muggle elf that gets skills instead of spells.

Half-elf has dropped from being one of the best species options in the game... to potentially being the absolute worst, much as it was in 3e. Its much like the 5e sorcerer problem. If everyone is a flexible caster... then what is the sorcerer's gimmick? You need to reinvent them from the ground up.

So, that's where the half-elf is in 5.5e right now. In dire need of a reimagining, because mechanically its in pretty bad shape.

So let them be reimagined into something that can stand on its own - bring their mechanics up to par with current species design or give me the tools to do it myself. That's what I've been saying all along.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Half-Elf from the earlier editions always felt to me like it's "watered-down elf" so there's one edition where they aren't mechanically "watered-down elf", well I felt the Half-Elf was then taking up too much room from then from other species that could be in a PHB like Aasimar and Goliath.

They definitely realized that more than 95% of anyone who picks Half-Orc as a PC option really wants to be be playing an actual Orc, so there's definitely a good reason why Orc is in, and Half-Orc gets side-barred.

Two other "half-races" the Tallfellow Halfling (Elf-Halfling) and the Stout Halfling (Dwarf Halfling) sub-species are implied to be "half-races" in other editions haven't really added too much to the Halflings, like the fact that most don't even realize they were Half-Halflings. But they certainly do demonstrate the current 2024 thing of "pick your main heritage". Yes if they have feats for an Elf or Dwarf bloodline you can pick a Halfling and take those feats, and they'd be a Tallfellow or Stout Halfling.

 

[Aldarc]

Half-Elf from the earlier editions always felt to me like it's "watered-down elf" so there's one edition where they aren't mechanically "watered-down elf", well I felt the Half-Elf was then taking up too much room from then from other species that could be in a PHB like Aasimar and Goliath.

The 4e Half-Elf was not a watered-down elf.

 

[Mephista]

Flavour is certainly free.

But when you're baking a cake, pure flavouring can't replace the flour and eggs.

Meh. At best, this is a complaint about using gluten free flour instead of whole wheat flour. We still have the cake.

 

[Mistwell]

Note that the first half is entirely cultural - diplomats and wanderers especially. The two worlds bit isn't literal, since the half-elf is not necessarily from the Feywild. But if instead we're talking just "the child of two peoples," that again is cultural - because its assuming those two peoples are culturally distinct. What if this was Ravnica, where elves and humans live side by side in the same culture? Then the bridge of two worlds isn't a thing. Name lists are cultural - a half-elf from the far parts of Toril will not pick the same name as one from the Sword Coast.

CULTURE IS NOT A WAY TO DESCRIBE SPECIES ANYMORE.

Age is meaningless in a ttrpg, since the game never lasts long for it to ever matter beyond the super abstract.

The aquatic, drow, high, wood, etc variants are taken from the elf parents. That's not a half-elf trait, that's a full elf trait that's being added in to make them feel more elvish. We're trying to argue about the half-elves deserving a distinct mechanical identity, not that they need to borrow more and more of Elf.

Again, very not compelling. Completely not addressing the issues people have with this change, trying to essentially say "the stuff you care about doesn't matter" to people who think it matters.

Imagine they changed armor class to purely some luck point system. People didn't like that change, and you kept responding, yelling, ARMOR IS NOT A WAY TO DESCRIBE AC ANYMORE. Would that be compelling? Would people who like AC like it is right now be persuaded because you just repeated that it was changed, over and over again, as if merely saying "this change was made" in different ways addresses the reasons people don't like the change?

What part of "this matters to a meaningful number of people" is not sinking in? I don't care if you can klooge it into some half-assed mechanical system. That's not addressing the issues being raised, which I and others have outlined with many points none of which really comes down to mechanics as opposed to the distinction and unique separateness of half-elves as their own thing, a core direct choice, as opposed to just a kloogey human or kloogey elf. Until you and others stop defending the change blindly and actually address the reasons people are raising, it's very uncompelling.

I mean, this is the entire theme of this thread - what it means for a race to end up in the PHB and the significance of it. How are people not able to address that meaning, and instead keep trying to shove a square peg into a round hole and call it round?

 

[Mind of tempest]

the human serving as the 'baseline' jack of all trades who could turn to be good at any of them was a much more notable feature when all the other species came with their own pros AND CONS, you could be nearly as good a mage as the elf was without the constitution penalty, or fight mostly as good as the dwarf without tanking your charisma, now all the penalties have been removed being 'the baseline' doesn't mean what it used to.

the problem with all the weaknesses where that they sucked what makes elves have lower con? you want fun weaknesses stuff like taking poison damage if iron crosses into the blood stream

 

[CreamCloud0]

the problem with all the weaknesses where that they sucked what makes elves have lower con? you want fun weaknesses stuff like taking poison damage if iron crosses into the blood stream

whatever the weaknesses of the other species end up being the fundamental point still stands though doesn't it?

 

[Mind of tempest]

whatever the weaknesses of the other species end up being the fundamental point still stands though doesn't it?

given that it was always some dumb stat failing no it does not regardless human should have more to chew on beyond is not really bad at stuff

 

[CreamCloud0]

given that it was always some dumb stat failing no it does not regardless human should have more to chew on beyond is not really bad at stuff

the actual point of my post that humans being a versatile baseline was more beneficial a trait when the other species were built with a pro and con dynamic