D&D General What it means for a race to end up in the PHB, its has huge significance

[Mind of tempest]

the actual point of my post that humans being a versatile baseline was more beneficial a trait when the other species were built with a pro and con dynamic

fair, the other reason humans end up that way is we are not aware of our weaknesses and we are used as the default

 

[Mecheon]

So let them be reimagined into something that can stand on its own - bring their mechanics up to par with current species design or give me the tools to do it myself. That's what I've been saying all along.

I mean, they'll come along eventually. The problem with half elves though is what they are, half human (already another race) and half elf (also already. Another race)

Extending the playable races to have more options in 'em is why the half elf is being removed, because in a lineup that's including seperate elves and humans, it does kind of feel like a wasted slot to have half-elf as distinct from anything like, goliaths or orcs

That's ultimately the issue with half elves. As long as humans and elves are going to be playable, they're going to occupy an awkward position. They'll probably get a shout out later, but having them as "Yup this a main race in your intro book" alongside dragon-people does present a bit of an odd look

 

[CreamCloud0]

I mean, they'll come along eventually. The problem with half elves though is what they are, half human (already another race) and half elf (also already. Another race)

Extending the playable races to have more options in 'em is why the half elf is being removed, because in a lineup that's including seperate elves and humans, it does kind of feel like a wasted slot to have half-elf as distinct from anything like, goliaths or orcs

That's ultimately the issue with half elves. As long as humans and elves are going to be playable, they're going to occupy an awkward position. They'll probably get a shout out later, but having them as "Yup this a main race in your intro book" alongside dragon-people does present a bit of an odd look

i feel like they could put in half elves/orcs in as subspecies of the human, just to respect their legacy, and it wouldn't take up nearly as much room as making them their own entire entries, put in a line with something about 'while there are many crossed-species offspring in the world there is a notable self sustaining population of these two specifically'.

then put the human's skill and feat into a 'pure human' subspecies, keep the new inspiration feature in base human so there's a more human unique feature in them and half elf can have darkvision, fey ancestry and half-elf versatility options and half-orc can have darkvision, relentless endurance and savage attacks.
(i haven't actually seen the playtest humans so i don't know if i got anything wrong about what they get)

 

[Hussar]

Because as shocking as this may be to hear, I care about more than just the mechanics. I care about how those mechanics are derived and I care about the story that process tells.

Ahh. This is where the issue lies.

To me, mechanics don't ever tell any story. There's no process involved and never has been, AFAIC. The races were given a bunch of fairly arbitrary abilities that kinda/sorta said "this" or "that" race. So, no, the mechanics to me have never mattered as far as picking a race goes. Pick whatever gets you the results that are close enough and move on.

So, I look at the fact that a 2014 half elf is virtually indistinguishable mechanically from an elf and think, ok, just make them elves. Poof. Done. Or, if you want to go the more Tanis Half-Elven route, pick human and be done.

It's up to the player to portray that character as being that race. Whether I've got a +2 to stealth does not define a race.

 

[Veltharis ap Rylix]

Ahh. This is where the issue lies.

To me, mechanics don't ever tell any story. There's no process involved and never has been, AFAIC. The races were given a bunch of fairly arbitrary abilities that kinda/sorta said "this" or "that" race. So, no, the mechanics to me have never mattered as far as picking a race goes. Pick whatever gets you the results that are close enough and move on.

So, I look at the fact that a 2014 half elf is virtually indistinguishable mechanically from an elf and think, ok, just make them elves. Poof. Done. Or, if you want to go the more Tanis Half-Elven route, pick human and be done.

It's up to the player to portray that character as being that race. Whether I've got a +2 to stealth does not define a race.

There was no process before because everything they designed to be playable was given its own bespoke mechanics.

Want to play an elf? Pick an elf.
Want to play a dwarf? Pick a dwarf.
Want to play a Khoravar? Pick a "half-elf".
Want to play a lupinal? Er, we don't have "monster PC" mechanics in 5e, but talk to your DM and see if the two of you can homebrew up a solution.

"Pick-a-parent" introduces a process where one previously didn't exist, applying specifically to characters of mixed ancestry. It does so for a perfectly noble reason, because creating bespoke mechanics for every possible combination of mixed PC ancestry is already practically impossible and only grows more so with each new addition to the roster (combinatorics be like that), but it means that now, when you want to play a mixed ancestry character, the game no longer directly gives you your species mechanics and instead tells you how to derive them.

It does this in the simplest possible way: pick one of your ancestors - that's what you are now.

That's where the process and its story and all the implications that spring from it come in. Want to play a lupinal? Well, we still don't have playable "monsters", so you and your DM will have to homebrew up something bespoke. Want to play a Khoravar? You're an elf now - get over it.

Obviously, a character's species mechanics are in no way the sum total of what defines them. I am not claiming that you can't roleplay a "half-elf" while using full elf or human species mechanics, and that may work just fine for a lot of people.

But it causes problems for me. It creates a disconnect between mechanics and worldbuilding for mixed ancestry characters that doesn't exist for single ancestry ones, and forces the expression of mixed heritage entirely into the roleplaying side of the game.

If I wanted my character's ancestry to have no meaningful impact on their mechanical identity, I'd use a Tasha-style Custom Lineage for everything or just play a game system without species mechanics at all.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

A lot the things about mixed-heritage should be more on the role-playing side of things, remember the idea that more than 90% of those who played Half-Orcs before really just wanted to play Orcs and not focus on anything about being a mixed Orc-Human. About the furthest most would go into that, is just playing an Orc that's adapted to Human culture.

If one wants to play someone that's between Orcish and something else, well they can now have the option to play an Orc-Elf which might have a lot more drama and role-playing opportunities than an Orc-Human (depending on the game world).

 

[Veltharis ap Rylix]

A lot the things about mixed-heritage should be more on the role-playing side of things, remember the idea that more than 90% of those who played Half-Orcs before really just wanted to play Orcs and not focus on anything about being a mixed Orc-Human.

Which is fine, considering that they can now just play orcs.

That cannot be said for people who want to be able to keep playing "half-orcs" as their own thing.

 

[Clint_L]

Which is fine, considering that they can now just play orcs.

That cannot be said for people who want to be able to keep playing "half-orcs" as their own thing.

Yeah, if you want to keep doing that you have to keep using the 2014 rules, which continue to exist, for that experience. Nothing is going away. The game is just removing objectionable concepts for new books. All of the stuff that you are complaining about going away continues to exist in 5e. It'll still be in DDB (you just toggle that legacy content to "on"). It'll still be in those source books.

So yeah, people who want to keep playing "half-orcs" as their own thing...can just keep playing "half-orcs" as their own thing.

It won't vanish, but it will no longer be iterated upon going forward, because it creates issues for WotC. You'll probably never agree with that, but there it is.

 

[Veltharis ap Rylix]

Yeah, if you want to keep doing that you have to keep using the 2014 rules, which continue to exist, for that experience. Nothing is going away. The game is just removing objectionable concepts for new books. All of the stuff that you are complaining about going away continues to exist in 5e. It'll still be in DDB (you just toggle that legacy content to "on"). It'll still be in those source books.

So yeah, people who want to keep playing "half-orcs" as their own thing...can just keep playing "half-orcs" as their own thing.

It won't vanish, but it will no longer be iterated upon going forward, because it creates issues for WotC. You'll probably never agree with that, but there it is.

My concerns have nothing to do with how things work at my specific table. I can handle that just fine, with or without WotC.

My concerns are the worldbuilding implications that "pick-a-parent" creates (What happens to Khoravar, Jhor'guntaal, and the three mixed Dragonmarked Houses the next time WotC visits Eberron? Or when we inevitably head into an actual 6e some 5-10 years down the road and the whole "you can still use legacy ancestries" option is no longer on the table?) and what actual mixed ancestry players (current and future) who identify with "half-elves" and "half-orcs" will feel when it's hard-coded into the game system's core rules that only one portion of their character's ancestry is allowed to matter.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Khoravar

As I said earlier, they are a separate species, not a hybrid. Mummy and daddy are also Khoravar. What happens is the next Eberron supplement will have khoravar as a setting-specific ancestry, just like it will have kalashtar.