D&D 5E What Makes an Orc an Orc?

[Crimson Longinus]

Sufficient for what? What are you talking about?

To play the class.

A +1 to your class’s primary ability modifier is not marginal.

It kinda is. And it is not like you don't get anything for giving it up. Sure, increased resilience and better concentration rolls do not fully make up for it, but for it really is not a huge deal.

If I want to roleplay an orc wizard, I can’t do so unless I accept that they will be a worse wizard than a human, or an elf, or a gnome would be.

In a certain way yes. Though you'd be better at some things than those. And it is not like orcs are alone in this, most races do not get an int bonus. So don't sweat about min-maxing, make cool orc wizard that is tough as nails and have fun!

It’s the main reason I dislike racial ability modifiers. You don’t have to agree with me, but it is my position.

Can we not drag up this tired red herring? All it leads to is pages of arguing about who can breed with who until we eventually come to the conclusion that the taxonomic terms we use in real life aren’t directly analogous to fantasy peoples.

I mean I didn't drag it to it. Trust me, I am concerned about offensive portrayals. But fantasy races are physically different in a way human ethnicities are not, so one can take the analogue too far. Seven foot tall orc being a bit stronger than a three foot tall halfling is merely common sense and basic verisimilitude to me.

Again, competitive balance is not my concern. My concern is with allowing players to be able to play whatever combination of race and class they want without taking a hit to their baseline competence at their class role.

And they can. Their baseline competence is easily within acceptable parameters. Random ability generation produces far bigger discrepancies.

 

[Guest 6801328]

This is a feature not a bug.

Yeah, that's totally valid.

I mean, I feel very differently, but that's just my aesthetic preference.

It amazes me how few people just say, "Yeah, I like that some races have more synergy with some classes, and vice versa" instead of going through contortions trying to defend racial bonuses as somehow not doing that, or that the synergy is inevitable, or whatever.

 

[Charlaquin]

Not perfect but still better than just speculating how much demand their actually is.

If you want to start such a poll, be my guest.

And IMO WotC is being very reactionary at the moment so I wouldn’t read too much into their actions as implying there’s significant demand for that.

Yeah, I’ not surprised to hear you think that. I’m sure it won’t surprise you to hear that I think you’re mistaken. Time will tell I suppose.

 

[Guest 6801328]

In a certain way yes. Though you'd be better at some things than those. And it is not like orcs are alone in this, most races do not get an int bonus. So don't sweat about min-maxing, make cool orc wizard that is tough as nails and have fun!

I think you are undervaluing what a +1 increase to your spell attack rolls, and especially to your saving throws, is worth. Not to mention the extra spell prepared each day. And +1 to Counterspell (which alone is huge.)

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Making racial ability bonuses "+2 to [fixed score], +2 to any other score" would go a long way towards satisfying the stated design goals of most parties here. Your half-orc wizard is unusually strong for a wizard, and my elf wizard is atypically graceful, but nobody is missing out on Intelligence.

 

[Charlaquin]

To play the class.

A 3 is sufficient to play the class, what’s your point?

It kinda is. And it is not like you don't get anything for giving it up. Sure, increased resilience and better concentration rolls do not fully make up for it, but for it really is not a huge deal.

I disagree. Increasing your class’s primary ability mod is about the single most valuable feature for any character.

In a certain way yes. Though you'd be better at some things than those. And it is not like orcs are alone in this, most races do not get an int bonus. So don't sweat about min-maxing, make cool orc wizard that is tough as nails and have fun!

Min-maxing isn’t the issue here. The game’s math is built around PCs having a +3 in their primary ability at 1st level. Less than that is below baseline competence. That most races can’t make a baseline competent wizard is a problem.

I mean I didn't drag it to it. Trust me, I am concerned about offensive portrayals. But fantasy races are physically different in a way human ethnicities are not, so one can take the analogue too far. Seven foot tall orc being a bit stronger than a three foot tall halfling is merely common sense and basic verisimilitude to me.

Again, you can mechanically express that orcs are stronger than gnomes without punishing players who want to play gnome barbarians. You don’t have to agree with me that such a change would be desirable, but this is not an effective counterpoint to my stance that it would be.

And they can. Their baseline competence is easily within acceptable parameters.

Who gets to decide what “acceptable parameters” are?

Random ability generation produces far bigger discrepancies.

Random ability generation doesn’t concern me because it isn’t tied to race. If certain races got to roll different dice codes for certain abilities, I’d have a similar problem with that.

 

[Charlaquin]

Making racial ability bonuses "+2 to [fixed score], +2 to any other score" would go a long way towards satisfying the stated design goals of most parties here. Your half-orc wizard is unusually strong for a wizard, and my elf wizard is atypically graceful, but nobody is missing out on Intelligence.

That’s be a step in the right direction. I’m not convinced the fixed bonus would add anything of value, but at least it would be possible to play any combination of race and class without being at a disadvantage. It’s a bit like what PF2 does, which while still far from perfect in my opinion handles starting ability scores a lot better than 5e does currently.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

It IS sufficient!

Ok.

So why is it so important to you that some races get a 16 in some attributes?

It is important that a race's niche is reflected mechanically. If a race's thing is that they're really strong, then they must be able to be stronger than other races or that niche is a lie.

I think you're missing the point. Entirely. The point is that as the game stands now you often have to choose between a 16 in your primary stat...which is a big deal mechanically...or play the race that fits the race you want to roleplay.

Is that trade-off the end of the world? No. But it's also entirely unnecessary.

I get that, but I don't think it is 'unnecessary.' It is a trade off for verisimilitude and niche protection. And that is preference thing. But I too have some concerns about this.

One thing I have though about regarding the balancing is and niches of the races is where the baseline is. Because 15 is the best you can buy and +1 racial bonuses are really common, it means that 16 in the main stat is pretty damn easy to get. There are many races that can give that 16 in your desired stat and all humans can get it. This makes 16 mentally the expected baseline, and can easily feel that if you can't get that you're punished, your character is weaker than they 'should.' This is unfortunate.

I suspect that if point buy cap was either 14 or 16, so that only way to get better bonus than others was to have +2 from the race, it would feel less like you're 'bad' if you don't have it as that +2 would be pretty rare. (You would however need to prohibit variant humans from stacking their possible feat ability bonus with their other +1s, or otherwise they could again max any stat.) Or maybe it would just lead to everyone pigeonholing to those +2 races even more. I don't know.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Again, you can mechanically express that orcs are stronger than gnomes without punishing players who want to play gnome barbarians.

I really don't feel that you satisfactorily can. It will be a mess of strength score is not a measure of your strength...

Min-maxing isn’t the issue here. The game’s math is built around PCs having a +3 in their primary ability at 1st level. Less than that is below baseline competence. That most races can’t make a baseline competent wizard is a problem.

Ok. Let's accept that this is true. How would you feel point buy allowing to buy up to 16 (perhaps with couple of more points)? Then everyone could always get at least that +3, and some rare races whose specific niche that thing was could get +4. Better? Even a little bit better?

 

[Charlaquin]

It is important that a race's niche is reflected mechanically.

I think this is where you and I fundamentally disagree. I don’t think it’s important that races have exclusive niches, or at least not that those niches extend to what classes those races are suited to. On the contrary, I think it’s important that all races be able to fill all class niches. They can (and in my opinion, should) be differentiated in other ways. An orc wizard should feel different than a gnome wizard, and an orc fighter should feel different than a gnome fighter. But I don’t think that better attack and damage rolls or better spell attack rolls and spell save DCs and more prepared spells accomplishes that goal. It just makes them feel worse at the other roll, instead of feeling effective at it in a different way.

If a race's thing is that they're really strong, then they must be able to be stronger than other races or that niche is a lie.

Again, I don’t disagree, I just think there are better ways to express that difference than Strength score. Carrying capacity, proficiencies, and unique features like Savage Attacks are (in my opinion) a better way to express that difference mechanically than pure numbers.

I get that, but I don't think it is 'unnecessary.' It is a trade off for verisimilitude and niche protection. And that is preference thing. But I too have some concerns about this.

It is indeed a preference thing. I empathize with the desire for verisimilitude, but I think that can be preserved without harming players’ freedom to play the race they want and fill the niche they want effectively.

One thing I have though about regarding the balancing is and niches of the races is where the baseline is. Because 15 is the best you can buy and +1 racial bonuses are really common, it means that 16 in the main stat is pretty damn easy to get. There are many races that can give that 16 in your desired stat and all humans can get it. This makes 16 mentally the expected baseline, and can easily feel that if you can't get that you're punished, your character is weaker than they 'should.' This is unfortunate.

I suspect that if point buy cap was either 14 or 16, so that only way to get better bonus than others was to have +2 from the race, it would feel less like you're 'bad' if you don't have it as that +2 would be pretty rare. (You would however need to prohibit variant humans from stacking their possible feat ability bonus with their other +1s, or otherwise they could again max any stat.) Or maybe it would just lead to everyone pigeonholing to those +2 races even more. I don't know.

I think if the point buy or array cap was 14 or 16 you would indeed end up further pigeonholing classes to the races that get +2 in their primary ability. As long as it’s possible for some races to get a +1 mod to an ability over other races, the races that can do so will be overwhelmingly favored for classes whose primary ability they can get that +1 in. If all races got one fixed +2 and one floating +2, or if like in the playtest, all races gave no more than +1 in any ability and classes gave +1 in their primary ability (or a choice of +1 in their possible primary abilities), this would at least make all races viable for all classes, even if it still wouldn’t be ideal in my opinion.