What makes an TTRPG a "Narrative Game" (Daggerheart Discussion)

[Crimson Longinus]

Take significant risk, accept thematic consequences/setbacks/trouble, address/express/struggle with your character's and crew's thematic porfolio, earn rewards that generate horsepower, momentum, evolution, and trajectory of characters, setting, situation.

If none of this does sufficient work to generate a particular and novel play paradigm...if players are still passive, unambitious, goal-vacuums, turtley derpburglars, and expecting the GM to just spoonfeed them theme & premise neutral opportunities...and/or the GM is willing and wanting to do just that and play some kind of weird "Score Crawl + GM Setting Solitaire?"

But that was never the problem. I don't see people playing super cautiously in other games either, and they do set goals and go for them and take risks. And sure, I see how that advice and some of the mechanics encourage it. But if you were doing that anyway, they really didn't do anything, did they?

Also, I think some of the mechnics in Blades kinds go against the idea. Like sometimes the negatives are really bad. For example damage is a big deal and healing slow. So completely unsurprisingly I see people in D&D taking more risks in combat and engaging violence more readily, because healing is rather easy.

 

[Campbell]

So, I don't think Blades or Masks or Burning Wheel are like special. My experience bears out that play where we specifically frame and specifically play into the thematic premises associated with a given character or setting element are more reliably going to result in play where these things are addressed. It's not exactly rocket science. Being intentional and disciplined about things being more likely to manifest those intentions doesn't seem like a stretch to me.

What makes more sense? That people like me who get something out of Apocalypse World that we do not get from using more traditional techniques are either simply bad at running trad games or that there is something to it? That there's value there, even if not for you.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

So, I don't think Blades or Masks or Burning Wheel are like special. My experience bears out that play where we specifically frame and specifically play into the thematic premises associated with a given character or setting element are more reliably going to result in play where these things are addressed. It's not exactly rocket science. Being intentional about things being more likely to manifest those intentions doesn't seem like a stretch to me.

Sure. I totally agree with this. But again, this isn't really about mechanics. It is about deciding the themes sticking to them while framing the fiction.

What makes more sense? That people like me who get something out of Apocalypse World that we do not get from using more traditional techniques are either simply bad at running trad games or that there is something to it? That there's value there, even if not for you.

I would just want people to articulate why they think it is these mechanics, instead of the fiction and themes they choose that produce this difference. Like that is the part I don't get.

Perhaps it is about the difference between principles and mechanics. Like I totally get why principles matter for this great deal, and I am way less convinced that the mechanics matter that much.

 

[hawkeyefan]

IMO, there’s like 4 or 5 of you with similar but different perspectives. Answering for each other is starting to muddy the waters for me more than it clears things up.

Different people have different ideas. Trust me, it's the same when I look at your questions compared to those of others.

If it's not making sense to you, I suggest you take @innerdude 's suggestion and run Ironsworn in solo mode for a fair bit. This will give you a taste of both GMing and playing, though perhaps not a full view of either. Maybe that will illuminate.

 

[thefutilist]

What would you say to the notion that there's a continuum between entirely predefined plot trad play and what @innerdude outlined, with your mix of predetermined elements and Narrativist play somewhere in the middle?

I would be really wary of conceptualising it as a continuum. I think me and innerdude are coming from really different places about how rpgs should operate, the creative relationship, how a story is formed, all of that.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Yet you cannot articulate it either. No, I don't think we are playing it wrong, it just isn't that special.

Not the way you've chosen to play it!

 

[FrogReaver]

Sure. I totally agree with this. But again, this isn't really about mechanics. It is about deciding the themes sticking to them while framing the fiction.


I would just want people to articulate why they think it is these mechanics, instead of the fiction and themes they choose that produce this difference. Like that is the part I don't get.

Perhaps it is about the difference between principles and mechanics. Like I totally get why principles matter for this great deal, and I am way less convinced that the mechanics matter that much.

Just to add. I think mechanics do matter. You can fairly clearly see that in sandbox vs adventure path d&d. And while the mechanics are not necessarily player facing they do make for quite different player experiences.

Then to add on to that, different narratives tend to require different gameplay and thus different mechanics.

D&D tends to be good for narratives requiring heroes taking on mostly external challenges with limited potential for personal complications and less good the further from that you go.

IMO of course.

I think maybe the difference is more about what kind of narrative is being supported, not whether one is.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Not the way you've chosen to play it!

If you think we're doing something wrong, tell me what. There is some weird obscurantism going on where specific mechanics are supposed to cause some magic to happen in a way that no one can explain.

 

[zakael19]

If you think we're doing something wrong, tell me what. There is some weird obscurantism going on where specific mechanics are supposed to cause some magic to happen in a way that no one can explain.

As @Manbearcat said in post #928, is your claim that system doesn't matter and that there's no such thing as narrativist games which through intentional design result in different (narrative) outcomes compared to a traditional game like D&D if players and GM follow the guidelines and expectations set forth?

 

[hawkeyefan]

If you think we're doing something wrong, tell me what. There is some weird obscurantism going on where specific mechanics are supposed to cause some magic to happen in a way that no one can explain.

I've said it already. You just shrug and say "but other games can do that" or "no, that's not any different". The way you're describing your Blades game as "just criminals doing criminal stuff" makes me think you're not really invested in it, or maybe the GM isn't, or maybe the entire group.

That lack of investment could be from ignoring the principles of play or the principles of GMing. While these are not "mechanics" in the same sense as dice rolls and action ratings and the like, they are (or rather should be) just as binding. They're not suggestions. That's the author telling you "This is how you should play the game". Yes, you can change that if you want, but that will have consequences.

In your case, it seems to me like you guys are ignoring the principles, the resultant game is not as compelling as it could be, and you're wondering why.

But I can't really say for sure. I've asked you to elaborate on your game a bit, and you give the most basic and non-detailed answers "because we needed to frame another crew" and "why? oh because we needed to keep them busy".

I can't just continue to try and pull these details from you in the hopes that eventually a complete enough picture to actually evaluate emerges.

If you want to talk about your game of Blades, then let's talk about it. Let'd not reference it and then shrug at requests for further details. Let's put it under the microscope and actually examine it, warts and all.