D&D 5E What PC does Huge DPS in your party ?

[Amatiel]

I have PC in my party. An Elf Fighter 5 / Rogue 2 / Warlock 1. He has 20 Dex & the Sharpshooter feat. As a rogue he can use disengage to move around the battle to get a good shot. Then Pow/Pow - 2 attacks or 4 with Action Surge. His + to Hit = Prof +3, Archery Style +2, Dex +5, Magic Bow +2 = +12 ... then he rolls damage 1d8+7 (+1d6 sneak attack, +2d6 lightning, +1d6 Hex)
With sharpshooter he still has +7 Hit.. and does 1d8+17 (+4d6) ~ avg's 33 damage a Hit! LOL

As part of a treasure horde, he found a +2 Stormbiter (same as flame tongue sword but a bow that deals lightning damage .. lol)

This would seem to have become a tad crazy ? or is it just me? In one of our bashes earlier.. Big nasty beast roars its challange at them. Elf burns action surge for 4 attacks.. all hit.. He did 104 damage in his opening salvo.. /Argh.. LOL

Needless to say the fight was over very quickly
Now, except for his bow ... which is the same as the flame tongue from DMG which is a rare item (lvl 6+) .. it is a +2 weapon.. (DMG list +2 weapons as rare as well (lvl 6+) .. so a +2 flametongue / Stormbiter bow.. didn't seem that big of a game breaker...

So the thing I am curious about, is that level of namage the expected norm for 8th lvl characters in 5e ?

 

[Redthistle]

Sheesh. That does seem broken. It's not just you.

Well, one thing is that I would not be distributing any +2 items until 3rd tier, but that's just in my campaign, and that would only reduce attack/damage rolls by 1.

A question: Did your group roll for abilities, or use the point-buy method? I'm wondering how he's already got 20 Dex AND a Feat, since the game balance the designers aimed for lets no player have any starting abilities higher than 17. Per the RAW, Ability Score Improvements are tied to class level, not to character level (unlike the proficiency bonus increases). A Fighter 5 / Rogue 2 / Warlock 1 should have had only one ASI, gained at Fighter level 4. Looks to me as if this PC has 2 ASIs too many.

 

[Sacrosanct]

In addition to what Redthistle said about ASIs and feats, also keep in mind that a +2 item in 5e is rare, so while it's possible to get a +2 bow before level 10ish, it's not likely. They only go up to +3, not +5 or higher as in previous editions. Also note that flame tongue does not grant a bonus to hit and is also rare. So to have a weapon that does both? That's considered legendary and isn't found until the PCs are in the mid teens at least. The DMG has it a 17th level recommended item.

Non mechanically related, I'd also question the class composition. Fighter+rogue+warlock? I'd love to hear that backstory. Did the player level dip for optimizing reasons, or is there an actual in game thematic reason?


To answer the tread title, we have on PC in our HotDQ adventure like that. A GWF fighter who has Hazeron (sp). In the defense of the publishers of that adventure, it came out before the DMG. But that weapon is way too OP to be in that campaign, especially at what levels you find it (5ish).

 

[GameOgre]

The balance between characters and monsters in this edition is out of whack slightly in favor of the pc's.

The issue normally is this: DM's mostly shove things further out of whack by letting pc's start with heroic stats(either rolled or higher point buy) and use optional rules like feats(that GREATLY power up the pc's) combined with not enforcing the 6-8 encounters between long rests.

If you do those things and then use the encounter building guidelines there is no way the monsters will be much of a challenge at all verse player characters with any mechanical skill level.

There are many fun solutions to these issues though.

Mostly I throw the encounter building guidelines out the window and let the player characters keep on going like a BOSS and just build awesome fun encounters for them that make them feel EPIC. I only give them like 40% exp so that they don't level up insanely fast with the massive loads of critters they put down every morning before breakfast. So they level about the same rate as they should time wise.....just with over twice the critters killed.


Also I hand out magic items like they are candy! $%$% the limited magic item rules! Err well but at the same time I destroy magic items like crazy as well. Monsters who just snap magic swords in two, traps and spells that destroy robes and shatter shields. Creatures that feed on magic.

Heck just yesterday I destroyed a +2 shield when the fighter made his save because of it verse Dragon Breath and described it as he successfully hide behind his shield as it flared with magic runes under the Dragons breath and slowly melted so that he threw it from him at the end to avoid heat damage and then charged the Dragon.

I would rather house rule it my way than be all stingy with the goods my guys crave.

 

[DeanP]

I suppose the damage output of the Elf doesn't trouble me, as long as the other player characters are contributing as well. I run different sets of characters, and I've found that most of the players have figured out how to maximize their attack chance and damage output. There are a few who still struggle with it, so those players tend to look to support other characters through spells, bardic abilities and what not.

As for creating a challenge, I think the solution is mixing foes. I use to wonder about 4e encounters, they seemed so odd with a mix of monsters that I wondered why they were together? However, if you looked at the specific abilities and roles of the 4e monsters in the encounter, plus factored in the terrain/environmental conditions it all made sense, even if I didn't actually like the constructed encounter. I think DMs have to do things similar to 4e; creating encounters that forces the players to rely on each other, and not just play into the strengths of a single character in the group. For example, I run my campaigns in the World of Greyhawk. A good set of foes for the sharpshooter character would feature a wizard or sorcerer capable of casting windwall, in the company of monks capable of effectively deflecting arrows and adding in some humanoid mercenaries, for additional foot support, or a conjured opponent. In my chronicle, the Slavers of the Wild Coast and the Scarlet Brotherhood could muster the mix-force encounter to challenge this character and his group.

 

[Blue]

I have PC in my party. An Elf Fighter 5 / Rogue 2 / Warlock 1. He has 20 Dex & the Sharpshooter feat. As a rogue he can use disengage to move around the battle to get a good shot. Then Pow/Pow - 2 attacks or 4 with Action Surge. His + to Hit = Prof +3, Archery Style +2, Dex +5, Magic Bow +2 = +12 ... then he rolls damage 1d8+7 (+1d6 sneak attack, +2d6 lightning, +1d6 Hex)
With sharpshooter he still has +7 Hit.. and does 1d8+17 (+4d6) ~ avg's 33 damage a Hit! LOL

As part of a treasure horde, he found a +2 Stormbiter (same as flame tongue sword but a bow that deals lightning damage .. lol)

This would seem to have become a tad crazy ? or is it just me? In one of our bashes earlier.. Big nasty beast roars its challange at them. Elf burns action surge for 4 attacks.. all hit.. He did 104 damage in his opening salvo.. /Argh.. LOL

Needless to say the fight was over very quickly
Now, except for his bow ... which is the same as the flame tongue from DMG which is a rare item (lvl 6+) .. it is a +2 weapon.. (DMG list +2 weapons as rare as well (lvl 6+) .. so a +2 flametongue / Stormbiter bow.. didn't seem that big of a game breaker...

So the thing I am curious about, is that level of namage the expected norm for 8th lvl characters in 5e ?

No, it's not expected damage for an 8th level character. Expected for an 8th level character you could stat with at most a 17 dex (15 from standard array or point buy +2 for elf). If then your 4th level feat is sharpshooter, you're still at +3 hit/damage from your 17 dex.

A flame tongue doesn't give a bonus to hit, just fire damage. So remove that +2 also from the to-hit. So your to-hit ios four points lower as expected. (And two points lower for the character above.)

Also, a flame tongue is a rare item. Based on this analysis here on ENWorld, http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...-of-quot-Typical-quot-Magic-Item-Distribution, and rare items are expected around 11th, so that's also not expected damage for an 8th level character.

So to sum up - that's way above the expected damage from an 8th level character with very high stats, giving the bow a to-hit bonus, and possibly giving a rare item early. It's legal with a natural rolled 18 and a generous DM for an atifact level treasure (rare Flame tongue plus a +2 bonus to hit), but way above expected.

 

[dmnqwk]

With sharpshooter he still has +7 Hit.. and does 1d8+17 (+4d6) ~ avg's 33 damage a Hit! LOL

You brought this on yourself, unfortunately.

As a DM it's up to you how powerful you wish players to be. Allowing the multiclass isn't causing such inflated numbers, it's the letting them roll for stats on top of giving such an insanely powerful item (which would've been okay in previous editions more than it is in 5th).

If you took away the bow AND had used point buy, then a Fighter 5 Rogue 2 Warlock 1 could only have a DEX 18 with Sharpshooter, meaning you'd be down to +4 to hit/1d8+15+2d6 (hex and sneak), which is only 26.5 damage a shot. The low +4 to hit would mean the PC was unlikely to try and sharpshooter every round, so more likely 16.5 a shot with a +9 to hit.

While you did indeed follow "the letter of the law" since a 1st level character can find a Flame Tongue, it's the kind of problems DMs run into all the time in 5th edition, since magical items are so terribly done in 5th edition that a trained chimp could've done a better job on it. Imagine a 1st level Fighter with and without a Flame Tongue. Instead of doing 1d8+5 (Str 16 and Fighting Style 1h weapon) she would be doing 1d8+5+2d6 fire, going from 9.5 per swing up to 16.5, or gaining over 70% damage from a single item. Insanity!

i would recommend you find a way to pare back the weapon, either having it become inert and forcing a long quest to reignite it's power (something unachievable until level 11) or accept your fate and find ways to make the monster's tougher to hit/more durable to cope with the unbalanced item.

 

[NotActuallyTim]

You brought this on yourself, unfortunately.

As a DM

The OP has not stated whether or not they are a DM.

While it's true that said character is hitting a fair bit harder than many others of the same level, that character is, not to put too fine a point on it, supposed to be doing quite a bit of damage. You don't go Fighter/Rogue to hit like a wet noodle.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

I have PC in my party. An Elf Fighter 5 / Rogue 2 / Warlock 1. He has 20 Dex & the Sharpshooter feat. As a rogue he can use disengage to move around the battle to get a good shot. ...snip...

As part of a treasure horde, he found a +2 Stormbiter (same as flame tongue sword but a bow that deals lightning damage .. lol)

...whell, thars yer problem!...

First, player min/maxes Dex with Race that specifically gives bonus to dex. Second, your DM allows the OPTIONAL Multiclassing rules. Third, not only does he allow MC'ing, he opens the flood gates for, what seems to be "Yeah, pick whatever...". Fourth, he tacks on yet another OPTIONAL rule, Feats. Fifth, he should be seeing where this is going...but I guess does nothing...so munchkin player chooses Sharpshooter ('natch). Sixth, said DM gives out an uber-item. And lastly, Seventh, said uber items players directly into the already munchninized grouping of numbers (I wouldn't call it a character...if/when the character dies the player will be ticked off about loosing all the cool numbers and items, and not even think twice about how his characters death would affect his friends, family and colleagues; but I'm guessing here, maybe the character has a very in-depth Role-Playing aspect).

Your DM basically gave a spoiled child an unlimited bank account, a lambourghini, a bottle of Grey Goose, and told to "Go do whatever you want, no consequences". What was he expecting?

So the thing I am curious about, is that level of namage the expected norm for 8th lvl characters in 5e ?

Uh...no? Get rid of Multiclassing, Get rid of Feats, Get rid of magic items. There. THAT is what 5e 'expects' from an 8th level character. An argument could be made for an 8th level character having a +1 magic item...maybe....but almost definitely not "exactly the perfect item for this character".

What we have he-yah...is a...failure...to communicate...

The rules of 5e, IMHO, do an excellent job of trying to communicate to the DM, and the players in particular, that the Dungeon Master is the go-to guy for pretty much everything related to the "campaign" and it's maintenance. This is the whole "with great power, comes great responsibility" thing (man, I'm on a roll with the quotes today! ). The DM is "given" the awesome responsibility of deciding everything that makes up his/her world (by that I mean, explicitly, not "hinted at", "intoned" or otherwise just "suggested"). Anytime a DM allows an OPTIONAL thing in the game...it is the DM's job to look at that allowance as to how it will affect his campaign first, and his players PC's second. Your DM failed multiple times (er...seven, actually...).

I could give all manner of suggestions on how to "fix" this problem...but all of them are going to result in a slow, torturous, tear-inducing tyraid from the player(s). It would be my suggestions to, at the table, in front of everybody, call out the player and just say "Dude...no. This isn't working. Your guy is WAAAAY too over powered. Retire him and make a new guy. Oh, and here are some houserules I came up with so this hopefully doesn't happen again [hand out sheet regarding MC'ing, Feats, magic items, etc]". Or...depending on the type of players he has... just run an encounter where the uber-elf-archer opens a door and comes face to face with a Mirror Of Opposition. Roll initiative. I'm betting dimes to dollars that the PC could kill himself in one round flat. Of course, if the other players all chime in with "No, he's not OP...he's just optimized that way!"...then, well, not much you can do if you want to keep playing with them. Sure, the DM has final say, but sometimes that say results in players just opting to not play in that DM's game.

Anyway...yeah. Pickle. (A) Talk to player, suggest new guy; (B) don't allow "everything in the book"; (C) Nuke campaign from orbit...it's the only way to be sure; (D) Mirror of Opposition that sumbeech and show him the power of the dark side...er...his optimized character.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Psikerlord#]

I have PC in my party. An Elf Fighter 5 / Rogue 2 / Warlock 1. He has 20 Dex & the Sharpshooter feat. As a rogue he can use disengage to move around the battle to get a good shot. Then Pow/Pow - 2 attacks or 4 with Action Surge. His + to Hit = Prof +3, Archery Style +2, Dex +5, Magic Bow +2 = +12 ... then he rolls damage 1d8+7 (+1d6 sneak attack, +2d6 lightning, +1d6 Hex)
With sharpshooter he still has +7 Hit.. and does 1d8+17 (+4d6) ~ avg's 33 damage a Hit! LOL

As part of a treasure horde, he found a +2 Stormbiter (same as flame tongue sword but a bow that deals lightning damage .. lol)

This would seem to have become a tad crazy ? or is it just me? In one of our bashes earlier.. Big nasty beast roars its challange at them. Elf burns action surge for 4 attacks.. all hit.. He did 104 damage in his opening salvo.. /Argh.. LOL

Needless to say the fight was over very quickly
Now, except for his bow ... which is the same as the flame tongue from DMG which is a rare item (lvl 6+) .. it is a +2 weapon.. (DMG list +2 weapons as rare as well (lvl 6+) .. so a +2 flametongue / Stormbiter bow.. didn't seem that big of a game breaker...

So the thing I am curious about, is that level of namage the expected norm for 8th lvl characters in 5e ?

Hmm yeah sounds very broken to me. I predict this campaign will fold, other players will become annoyed (if they arnt already) that one PC is dominating, and/or the DM will accidentally TPK the group, trying to challenge the big hitter.

Unfortunately, the more I play 5e, the more I find this kind of power discrepancy is not uncommon - esp if you allow multiclassing. I believe one key to keeping the party reasonably balanced between PCs is not to allow MCing.