NotActuallyTim
First Post
Hang on, are you counting the sneak attack twice?
Characters should only be able to sneak attack once per turn.
Characters should only be able to sneak attack once per turn.
D&D 5E What PC does Huge DPS in your party ?
- Thread starter Amatiel
- Start date
Remathilis
Legend
Ignoring the rest of your condescending post for a minute, I want to focus on this fallacy that gets repeated over and over again.
It's oft stated that feats, multi-classing, and magic items are not part of the "core" D&D game because they are "optional". Ergo, since they are optional, they are somehow game breaking in their inclusion. It is thus assumed that if a DM allows any or all of those options, he is effectively killing his own game since 5e isn't built to "handle" it.
Bullocks.
The game runs fine with all three "options" turned on; it just doesn't assume they will be. The math doesn't assume a steady progress of magical gear, but that doesn't mean the game breaks if its introduced. They present the option for multi-classing and feats, with an opportunity cost (levels in your base class or ASI) but don't assume every character will need them. The DM needs to account for synergy, of course, but the idea that allowing those options "breaks" the game and that 5e cannot handle them is ludicrous.
The OP might be having problems with his game (IF he's the DM) but they don't come from allowing these options.
The highest DPR character in my game is a 9th level human paladin who uses a glave, using great weapon fighting and polearm master. Without any magic weapon, he deals about 21 (6+5+10) damage twice per round with his glave, plus 18 (3+5+10) damage with the shaft (unless drops a creature or gets a crit, then he uses the glave again). He regularly uses the Great Weapon benefit (-5 attack for +10 damage), because our Wolf Totem Barbarian gives him advantage just about every other fight. This allows him about 60 damage per round, which is 3 less than your example, but he can also smite (which he seldom does except on a crit or boss fight).
Optimized characters (especially those using feats, multi-classing, and magic items) can really wreck the damage curve, but it's not really that bad. The Dragon Fire Sorcerer in our group deals crap loads of damage, as does the Wolf Totem Barbarian. The rouge (when he shows up) has potential as well. The two with lower DPR, the bard and the eldritch knight, are far more versatile than the others (the barbarian and paladin lack greatly in ranged, while the sorcerer has durability issues), and provide fantastic support. IME, it's far more about the cohesion of the group, rather than the capability of a single character.
Remathilis
Legend
First off, an elf with a 20 Dex and only one ASI means you had to have rolled stats to achieve those numbers. Rolled stats are generally going to be better than point-buy stats and said elf is taking advantage of this. He's essentially getting a free +2 to hit/damage because he rolled an 18. Also, he only gets his SA on one attack per round.
THERE'S YOUR PROBLEM! He has the equivalent of two rare weapons in one; a +2 weapon and a "flame tongue". That is NOT a rare. The closest to this is actually the staff of Thunder and Lightning, which is a +2 that deals an extra 2d6 damage and is Very Rare. (And still doesn't compare because the bow is a ranged weapon which synergizes well.) Every other similar weapon (dragon slayers, giant banes, maces of disruption, frost brands, flame tongues) either add their damage conditionally (vs. a specific type of foe like dragons or undead) or have only a +1 or +0 to hit/damage. That bow is Very Rare, possibly Legendary, NOT Rare.
Elf Fighter(Champion): +1 Longbow. +11 to hit, 1d8+6 damage, two attacks ~ 10 damage per hit, or +6 to hit, 1d8+16 or 20 damage per hit. Built with Sharpshooter and 20 Dex.
Human Rogue(Assassin): +1 Rapier +9 to hit, 1d8+6 + 4d6 SA (24 damage per hit) 20 Dex, no feats.
Tiefling Warlock(Infernal): +1 Rod of the Pact Keeper +9 eldritch blast, 1d10+6 +1d6 hex each (15 damage per hit) 20 Cha, no feats, + Hex.
Half-orc Barbarian(Frenzied Berserker) +1 Greatsword +8 to hit, 2d6+7 damage (14 damage per hit) or 24 damage (+3 to hit) with GWM. 19 Str, Great Weapon Master.
So the Sample Fighter can do 40 damage per round if he hits twice and sharp shoots, or 80 if he action surges 1/rest. The Rogue delivers 24 damage with one hit if she hits. The Warlock can get 30 damage if both her beams hit, and the half-orc, if he frenzies, can get a whopping 72 points of damage per hit with GWM. (But suffers a level of exhaustion for doing so). Note, to get these insane totals, they need to expend a resource (save the rogue) so they can't do it EVERY round of EVERY combat, but they all have nova potential.
THERE'S YOUR PROBLEM! He has the equivalent of two rare weapons in one; a +2 weapon and a "flame tongue". That is NOT a rare. The closest to this is actually the staff of Thunder and Lightning, which is a +2 that deals an extra 2d6 damage and is Very Rare. (And still doesn't compare because the bow is a ranged weapon which synergizes well.) Every other similar weapon (dragon slayers, giant banes, maces of disruption, frost brands, flame tongues) either add their damage conditionally (vs. a specific type of foe like dragons or undead) or have only a +1 or +0 to hit/damage. That bow is Very Rare, possibly Legendary, NOT Rare.
Elf Fighter(Champion): +1 Longbow. +11 to hit, 1d8+6 damage, two attacks ~ 10 damage per hit, or +6 to hit, 1d8+16 or 20 damage per hit. Built with Sharpshooter and 20 Dex.
Human Rogue(Assassin): +1 Rapier +9 to hit, 1d8+6 + 4d6 SA (24 damage per hit) 20 Dex, no feats.
Tiefling Warlock(Infernal): +1 Rod of the Pact Keeper +9 eldritch blast, 1d10+6 +1d6 hex each (15 damage per hit) 20 Cha, no feats, + Hex.
Half-orc Barbarian(Frenzied Berserker) +1 Greatsword +8 to hit, 2d6+7 damage (14 damage per hit) or 24 damage (+3 to hit) with GWM. 19 Str, Great Weapon Master.
So the Sample Fighter can do 40 damage per round if he hits twice and sharp shoots, or 80 if he action surges 1/rest. The Rogue delivers 24 damage with one hit if she hits. The Warlock can get 30 damage if both her beams hit, and the half-orc, if he frenzies, can get a whopping 72 points of damage per hit with GWM. (But suffers a level of exhaustion for doing so). Note, to get these insane totals, they need to expend a resource (save the rogue) so they can't do it EVERY round of EVERY combat, but they all have nova potential.
Prism
Explorer
I would say a couple of factors are causing such a high damage output. Firstly the 20 Dex and the feat - this character only gets one ASI so we can assume that the player rolled an 18 (about a 1 in 10 chance of a rolled character getting one 18 at least). I like rolling stats so wouldn't say on its own this causes a problem, however as a DM I wouldn't give that character a magic item that directly enhances its strength so early (at 8th level) and by so much. A +2 weapon that also does 2d6 extra damage is very powerful. Very few items are both plussed to hit and do additional damage. The Staff of Thunder and Lightning and the Wand of Orcus. Most items that do extra damage are conditional upon certain creature types e.g dragons or giants
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Yes. Very high damage. And the reasons are laid out by others. But at the same time not too much to worry about. Your enemies will face problems in open fields. Your archer will deal damage at 600 feat... There is nothing you can do about that.
You can hosever accept that the PC is strong and just let hin his success. There will be fights where he can't just kill everything with his bow. Dungeons come to mind and ambushes.
Also you should consider usin higher level foes once in a while. If they are human, optimize them a bit too, but don't foolishly make a character to counter him especially, except when the story demands it.
It is not your job as DM to kill your PCs but to make a fun game. If your PCs like killing things, let them.
One last thing you may use: attrition. Don't let PCs rest whenever they want. Harrass them once in a while. This way limited resources like hex are used more carefully.
You can hosever accept that the PC is strong and just let hin his success. There will be fights where he can't just kill everything with his bow. Dungeons come to mind and ambushes.
Also you should consider usin higher level foes once in a while. If they are human, optimize them a bit too, but don't foolishly make a character to counter him especially, except when the story demands it.
It is not your job as DM to kill your PCs but to make a fun game. If your PCs like killing things, let them.
One last thing you may use: attrition. Don't let PCs rest whenever they want. Harrass them once in a while. This way limited resources like hex are used more carefully.
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
The biggest DPR I've seen comes from a Necromancer. 100+ points of damage per round is easily achieved, once someone grants his skeletons advantage via Faerie Fire/Web/constrictor snakes/whatever.
We have two real damage dealers in our party.
1. Hunter Ranger 9, 20 Dex, Sharpshooter, +1 bow. Regularly does two attacks at +12 to hit, d8+d6+6 (bonus d8 on one for colossus slayer).
2. Battlemaster Fighter 9, using Hazirawn and Great Weapon Master. He is actually not optimized (only 16 strength and defense fighting style) and started as shield/longsword until he got the 2H sword which is slowly corrupting him.
Both do considerably more damage than our Cleric and Wizard. They occasionally shine on AoE damage with Spirit Guardians or Fireballs, but for single target, neither can come remotely close to those.
Recently we got split up and the two were divided into Cleric/Wizard and Ranger/Fighter. The Cleric and Wizard had to blow most of their daily spells in order to kill the same guys the others did in a few rounds.
1. Hunter Ranger 9, 20 Dex, Sharpshooter, +1 bow. Regularly does two attacks at +12 to hit, d8+d6+6 (bonus d8 on one for colossus slayer).
2. Battlemaster Fighter 9, using Hazirawn and Great Weapon Master. He is actually not optimized (only 16 strength and defense fighting style) and started as shield/longsword until he got the 2H sword which is slowly corrupting him.
Both do considerably more damage than our Cleric and Wizard. They occasionally shine on AoE damage with Spirit Guardians or Fireballs, but for single target, neither can come remotely close to those.
Recently we got split up and the two were divided into Cleric/Wizard and Ranger/Fighter. The Cleric and Wizard had to blow most of their daily spells in order to kill the same guys the others did in a few rounds.
This is a lovely point, having a game with these rules can be just as difficult or easy as a campaign with none of these rules, it all just comes down to who is at the table. The games' difficulty comes down to the players, and depending on the style, the DM to a greater extent. Do the characters work well together. Personally I enjoy a give and take method of playing, you give a PC a strong magical item, have them encounter circumstances in where it can be broken or stolen. Find that the characters are too strong? Find a God/Fiend that is powerful enough to drain some of their stats temporally. Or have them fall into circumstances where they have to do more than just deal dmg to random mobs, have them use their own intuition, or have them rely on non-combat skills. A few thoughts that come to mind are defending an entire garrison or having the PC's command a legion. Regardless of how adept characters are in one portion of the game, the GM should be resourceful enough to still present a challenge to the players.
Flamestrike
Legend
I have PC in my party. An Elf Fighter 5 / Rogue 2 / Warlock 1. He has 20 Dex & the Sharpshooter feat. As a rogue he can use disengage to move around the battle to get a good shot. Then Pow/Pow - 2 attacks or 4 with Action Surge. His + to Hit = Prof +3, Archery Style +2, Dex +5, Magic Bow +2 = +12 ... then he rolls damage 1d8+7 (+1d6 sneak attack, +2d6 lightning, +1d6 Hex)
With sharpshooter he still has +7 Hit.. and does 1d8+17 (+4d6) ~ avg's 33 damage a Hit! LOL
As part of a treasure horde, he found a +2 Stormbiter (same as flame tongue sword but a bow that deals lightning damage .. lol)
This would seem to have become a tad crazy ? or is it just me? In one of our bashes earlier.. Big nasty beast roars its challange at them. Elf burns action surge for 4 attacks.. all hit.. He did 104 damage in his opening salvo.. /Argh.. LOL
Needless to say the fight was over very quickly
Now, except for his bow ... which is the same as the flame tongue from DMG which is a rare item (lvl 6+) .. it is a +2 weapon.. (DMG list +2 weapons as rare as well (lvl 6+) .. so a +2 flametongue / Stormbiter bow.. didn't seem that big of a game breaker...
So the thing I am curious about, is that level of namage the expected norm for 8th lvl characters in 5e ?
That is a ridiculously potent item mate. It adds 2d6+2 damage to all his attacks in a round, and +2 to hit in a game with bounded accuracy is massive. Its approaching artifact levels of power.
It effectively grants him 2-4 extra greatsword attacks per round, doubling his damage output.
I also note that he is not built using point buy. A Dex of 20 is impossible at that level using point buy.
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