D&D 5E What PC does Huge DPS in your party ?

[pming]

Hiya!

Ignoring the rest of your condescending post for a minute, I want to focus on this fallacy that gets repeated over and over again.

It's oft stated that feats, multi-classing, and magic items are not part of the "core" D&D game because they are "optional". Ergo, since they are optional, they are somehow game breaking in their inclusion. It is thus assumed that if a DM allows any or all of those options, he is effectively killing his own game since 5e isn't built to "handle" it.

Bullocks.

The game runs fine with all three "options" turned on; it just doesn't assume they will be. The math doesn't assume a steady progress of magical gear, but that doesn't mean the game breaks if its introduced. They present the option for multi-classing and feats, with an opportunity cost (levels in your base class or ASI) but don't assume every character will need them. The DM needs to account for synergy, of course, but the idea that allowing those options "breaks" the game and that 5e cannot handle them is ludicrous.

The OP might be having problems with his game (IF he's the DM) but they don't come from allowing these options.

I'm a bit confused...are you agreeing with me, or not? Your post reads, to me, as Yeah, allowing MC, Feats, and powerful magic items can break the game if the DM doesn't account for it...which was basically what I said. The game doesn't "account for all the contingencies"...that's where the DM comes in.

In my post I pointed out that all of these, used together, with no DM "accounting for" stuff...will, or easily can, break the game. If a DM allows MC'ing, but that's it..then it is unlikely to 'break' the game as is. Allowing unfettered MC'ing with no rhym or reason, simply to let a player optimize his PC may (I'd even say will) have great potential to 'mess things up'. If no MC'ing, but allowing Feats...again, same thing. Potential to 'break' something or at least OP some particular character choices (just read some of the threads dealing with GWF, Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert). Powerful magic items...again, same concept. By themselves...powerful. Combined with certain other OP'ed leanings of a character and you have virtually guaranteed game-breaking shenanigans.

...take all three of those, put them together, and then have a seemingly 'absent DM' who isn't accounting for synergy (your words)...well, see the first post in this thread by the OP.

So, IMHO, yes. Simply adding those three factors together into a 5e game will "break it"...if the DM does nothing to counteract the obvious and likely "player choices". As for the game running "fine"... Ill have to see your Bullocks and raise you a Horse-Hockey. The game will not "run fine", unless by "fine" you mean the bare minimum of that word in context of an RPG. In other words, rolling 1d20+4 to hit vs rolling 1d20+12 to hit. Yeah, with the +12 it still runs "fine", but that doesn't mean it's going to be fun for everyone (especially the DM), nor is it going to be "good" for the campaign.

I do agree with you that 5e can handle it....but only if the DM does what he is supposed to do and adjudicate combos and whatnot that may arise from allowing this option or that one.

Lastly, your last sentence... "...but they don't come from allowing these options". This makes zero sense to me. Of course they came from allowing those options. If those options weren't allowed, we wouldn't have this thread. Now, if you are suggesting that simply having those options in the book, and allowing them, would not have made a difference if the player wouldn't have chosen those options...well, what can I say? It's like someone offering you 10 million dollars and you saying "Naaaa...I hear too many stories about being unhappy with you win the lottery, so I'm not going to even give it a shot". Possible? Yes...likely? Not very...

MC + Feats + Min/Maxed Stats + Optimal Race + Overpowered Magic Item Perfect for Said Choices = GAME BREAKING CHARACTER

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Dit464]

He is not saying you're wrong, he is saying such a blanket statement of "optional rules, especially multiple, break the game" is not adding to the post. Just because you enjoy a featless non-multiclassing campaign doesn't mean everyone who decides to have these rules is playing wrong, which although I do agree slightly that this campaign is broken, (I'd take out the nonthematic multiclassing and the insane magic item) is what your saying in your post above, "Of course they came from allowing those options. If those options weren't allowed, we wouldn't have this thread." So I request that you take your tongue out of your cheek and think about how other people might play, not just yourself.

 

[Amatiel]

I like feats & lots of treasure.. I just kind of went to far with it.. The last few encounters I was running CR 13 creatures against a level 7 party.. And I new I had problems when the encounter didn't last past round 4! LOL

 

[Horwath]

I like feats & lots of treasure.. I just kind of went to far with it.. The last few encounters I was running CR 13 creatures against a level 7 party.. And I new I had problems when the encounter didn't last past round 4! LOL

Who doesn't?

If you want to challange players that are out of their CR because of extra feats, more stats or strong items or all mentioned, dont go with single high CR creature it's easy to control him and if it's stupid it's going to be just another boring spank&tank battle.

Go for several creatures of party CR and lots of minions(CR 1/2 to 1).
Even as you give extra feats and items main weakness of the PC's is action economy, they still have only one action per round(usually). And if you have only one opponent that is enough actions. Spread them around and make then think on several fronts.



On original question our lvl7 barbarian dishes out most damage by far and is somewhat safe due to bear totem.

I play now rogue6/fighter1 assassin and deal lot less damage(except surprise), but being wood elf and having bonus action hide/dash/disengage take almost 0 damage per combat.

Warlock does mostly sleep/banishing so that is in a way maybe highest damage while not actually dealing damage.

Paladin is sword and board with sentinel(for barbarian) and can nova burst with smites.


But i think that for constant DPS its halforc barbarian with GWM and PAM. Bear totem to counteract giving everybody advantage on attacks vs. you.

 

[Remathilis]

I'm a bit confused...are you agreeing with me, or not? Your post reads, to me, as Yeah, allowing MC, Feats, and powerful magic items can break the game if the DM doesn't account for it...which was basically what I said. The game doesn't "account for all the contingencies"...that's where the DM comes in.

I thought you were saying that those options pretty much automatically break the game, which I was contesting. Basically, "You allowed those options, don't come crying to us" kinda message. There are a lot of threads where the idea that if you are using those rules, you're doing something wrong is floated, and I disagree with the notion that any or all of them are "traps" used to break the game.

 

[Amatiel]

Yes, I will keep using feats in my campaign. I like the flavor they allow. I think my big mistake was allowing a weapon with both an enhancement modifier AND the flametongue abilities. Combined it becomes lethal. Also, allowing a +2 item at low levels was a tactically bad decision on my part I admit LOL ... getting in sharpshooter benefit every attack at 7th lvl is ing lethal, the poor monsters in the MM just aren't designed to be handling that level of damage output at that CR.

 

[Prism]

What I do as a DM is make powerful items like this intelligent and then also make them a total pita to keep. Over the years, some of our best campaign arcs have been around trying to find powerful items and artifacts to get certain quests done and then spending almost as long trying to get rid of the things. One of my characters was basically dominated by the Sword of Kas for many months.

There is a sword in the Hoard of the Dragon Queen adventure just like this bow.

SPOILER...


Our party found it at level 8 and it is +2, a greatsword and also does an extra 2d6 damage. However its legendary, intelligent and evil. We could see no good coming from that item so the party buried it and walked away. Probably the most powerful item we will ever find in that campaign. Another party would have probably used it but something of that power should often come with a significant price

 

[Devilbass]

There's a level 8 dwarven battlerager in the party I'm playing with, and he wrecks faces quite well. He regularly dishes out 40-50 damage a round, and over 60 is not terribly uncommon. He has a magical greatsword, but I don't know what it does. Really though, that kind of damage doesn't rely on his sword. He has GWM, and uses it virtually every attack because he's always attacking recklessly. With his reckless attack, he hits more often than not, and so deals piles of damage. The math works out something like this (I think his STR is 18, but I'm not sure):

7 (2d6) + 4 (STR) + 3 (Rage) + 10 (GWM) = 24 *2 = 48

On rounds following the first (when he activates rage), he can also attack with a spiked gauntlet as a bonus action, due to his battlerager subclass, which looks like this:

2 (1d4) + 4 (STR) + 3 (Rage) = 9


Next to him, my level 8 Eldritch Knight probably deals the most damage from round to round, typically coming in around 30-40 (close to double that with an action surge). I wield a maul which gives me a +4 STR and is also +1 attack/damage, though it also drops my max HP by 25%. This maul is massively powerful, but the HP penalty has hurt pretty bad a couple of times. I took the Great-Weapon Fighting style. My attack routine is to use Green-Flame-Blade (GFB), followed by a bonus action attack, both with the aforementioned maul. Looks like this:

8 (2d6, reroll 1s and 2s) + 6 (STR) + 1 (Magic) + 4 (GFB) = 19

Followed by:

8 (2d6, reroll 1s and 2s) + 6 (STR) + 1 (Magic) = 15

This is all just single-target stuff, so if there is another opponent close by, I'll deal an extra 6 (1d8+2) damage to it from GFB.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I've got a fighter in my HotDQ game with the Sentinel and Polearm Master feat, who managed to get their hands on a magic staff that deals poison damage.

So many reaction attacks and regular-action attacks and action-surge attacks that he WRECKS FACE on the regular.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

I thought you were saying that those options pretty much automatically break the game, which I was contesting. Basically, "You allowed those options, don't come crying to us" kinda message. There are a lot of threads where the idea that if you are using those rules, you're doing something wrong is floated, and I disagree with the notion that any or all of them are "traps" used to break the game.

Ahhh...ok. Confusion on both parts I guess.

I don't think that the optional rules presented in the PHB, DMG and MM (?), if allowed, are going to "break" anyone's campaign in and of themselves. However, my contention was that allowing all those options, then adding in a VERY powerful magic item which seems to have been tailor-made for that one PC...AND THEN, with no DM oversight into how those may affect the tone of the game...will/did "break" the campaign. The "perfect storm", so to speak.

^_^

Paul L. Ming