D&D General What penalties or how should i handle this wish?

[ovks22]

Hi im a relatively new DM, and the party im Dming for just got to lvl 16, there are 2 sorceres in the party and they both picked wish, i told them that i would allow only one wish per character and the whole party was ok with it because it seamed a bit op, in compensation i said i would be a bit more flexible with the wishes (allow more powerful stuff to be wished), but depending on how big the wish was (and if the wish was approved) the consequences for the caster would be greater. Everything was going well, the first sorcerer asked for help, in a very dificult boss battle, i granted it and all was well, the problem came with the second sorcerer who asked to unlock the fighter's (Eldritch Knight) full potential, meaning that he wishes for her to be able to have spells slot from lvl 5 to 9 because Eldritch Knights only get from 1to 4, this happened as they were entering another boss battle but it was cut as soon as the wish was made because the sorcerer had an emergency, the thing is that i dont think is that far fetched of a wish, but i do think his character should recibe a heavy or permanent punishment for this. Any ideas what the punishment or permanent handicap should be? Thanks in advance

 

[Baldurs_Underdark]

Firstly, at this level, your players are going to mess up anything you throw at them. So, just accept that and have fun watching them turn the world upside down.

Some ideas to help with interpretation:

• If the wish was very clear to grant level 5-9 spell slots, then I'd happily grant these, but no spells (and also no ability to ever get any). Good luck casting L1-4 spells at higher levels.
• Another interpretation can be to convert the Eldritch knight into a true spellcaster - effectively rewriting the entire character sheet, but obviously removing some Fighter skills/proficiencies. Maybe turn the Eldritch Knight into a Warlock where the sorcerer that cast the Wish is the patron. This might mess up the relation at the table though, so be careful.
• If the PC will definitely want to remain an Eldritch Knight, I would emphasize on the interpretation of "full potential". Anything beyond level 20 seems outside that wish, so since an Eldritch Knight at level 20 will NOT have a level 9 spell, the PC will also not get it because of this wish. It's the full potential of the Eldritch Knight, not a wizard or sorcerer.

 

[Mecheon]

'Full potential' is an open thing. I wouldn't say its saying 5-9 spellslots because, that's not full potential, that's just 'doing what a wizard does' with no look at the fighting side.

I'd probably give them a custom spell that blends melee and spellwork and is themed around that. Powerful but not out of line for spells they have. Probably themed around firing sword lasers in traditional Zelda fashion, and themed around being able to fire off as an eldritch knight.

 

[Helldritch]

The character is already at its full potential. So the wish would simply heal the character or restore used up spell slots up to 8 level worth. 2 4th or any combination that brings it to 8 restored spell slot.

 

[Unwise]

I'd just make the Eldritch Knight level 20. Tada, "full potential" has been reached. Gaining 4 levels is nothing to sneeze at.

Mechanically, nobody has the potential to be a level 20 fighter and level 20 mage, that is why we don't cap out at level 40.

 

[delericho]

Give them the spell slots of a level 20 Wizard (but no new spells to go with it - so as @Baldurs_Underdark says, they can cast low level spells using those high level slots only).

However, the benefit only lasts until the end of the boss fight (or, if you're feeling kind, until they take a Long Rest).

That way the potential gets unlocked, the players have great fun playing with their new toys for a while, but you game doesn't get entirely broken.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Ooh, that's a bit complicated, isn't it? The wish was used to help someone else--admittedly, in a way that will also help the caster, but still!--so I think there's some wiggle room because of that.

My recommendation is not to make it strictly punitive, but instead to push things into new directions. What consequences are there for a person very suddenly going from partial spells to max? Seems to me that this would make the EK friend EXTREMELY interesting to a lot of dangerous people! EK-friend is now a natural font of magic. Will their children be sorcerers? Does their blood have magical properties? Are there dangerous or annoying side-effects?

What about the person who cast the spell--in a certain sense, they are now the EK's "patron," are there responsibilities that come with that? Has this spell essentially turned them into something like a demon, genie, or archfey? They're almost certainly going to attract interest from someone with powers of that kind, possibly multiple someones. Suddenly, this character who just wanted to grant power to a friend will be drawn into a dangerous web of intrigue and plots and pressure to conform or get squashed.

Finally, were there any costs to the caster, other than this being the only wish spell they get to cast? Perhaps the reason you can't cast it more than once is that you lose a part of your soul. Does that make a special bond between the EK and the person who cast this spell? Or maybe it IS possible to cast another wish, but the caster has to track down exactly how that can be done....and there are others who would do anything to stop them (perhaps with good reason!)

Another option: Perhaps a good deity will be upset by this short-circuiting of this character's personal development, or intrigued at the possibility that magic can "unlock" such powers within a person. This could put the character in a position where they have to choose between cooperating with a good-aligned force (even if they don't strictly like that force, or perhaps outright oppose that force!) or taking the huge risk of pissing off the armies of good and having to go into hiding or the like.

IOW, you can do all sorts of things that don't cause direct, immediate problems for the person who cast wish, but which still heavily impact the character AND the player.

 

[Shiroiken]

Here's where wording can be important. If their "true potential" was in reference to spellcasting ability, then you convert the character from a to a Wizard (Blademaster), even if they're not an elf. If it was just in general, then you could make them level 20, or you could give them maximum HP, as if every level was rolled with a 10 as the result.

 

[aco175]

What level is the campaign going to? Take that into account before going too far punishing someone or caring about a bit more power at that level. Also consider if the EK player was in with the sorcerer casting the wish or did not want it cast on him in the first place.

Maybe the full potential is level 20 since there is no knights higher than this. You could just bump him one level towards it. Cool, but no game changer.

Maybe there is a cool other power that was 'forgotten' among the EKs of the world and now he knows it and can do something cool 1/rest. Again, not a game changer but has more roleplay opportunities as all the EKs from the land hear about this.

You can also bump the casting max be one level to allow 4th level spells at 16th level with another at 18th. And give a 5th level spell starting at 18th. Again, at that level it is not much.

You can also ask the player.

 

[Lyxen]

the thing is that i dont think is that far fetched of a wish

It is extremely far-fetched for a wish, even an extra-powerful one. Look at the example in the spell description, this goes much further than anything there, in particular creating a new class that is more powerful than any other.

After that, if it's really the full potential as a spellcaster, then poof the character is now a wizard with full spellcasting potential, but loses all the benefits of his Eldritch Knight. And that is powerful enough for a wish, to changer class completely.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I would give the Eldritch Knight access to the spells/spell slots of the Sorcerer who cast the wish until they finish a next long rest.

This would give the EK power not normally allowed and syphon spells from the sorcerer as the "price" of the wish.

 

[Li Shenron]

Do I understand right that you limited Wish in a way that basically this will be the one and only time it can be cast by this character?

There is already a very strong limitation by the PHB rules:

"The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you." (...) "Finally, there is a 33 percent chance that you are unable to cast wish ever again if you suffer this stress."

but here you're making it happen for certain the first time. I don't know what is the average number of times you can use it by the PHB, but before you meet this fate you can keep using Wish at least to duplicate lower-level spells, which IMHO is what anyone should be doing (especially a Sorcerer) to get the most out of Wish, until the day when Wish truly becomes a dealmaker to "save the day" (and maybe the year, or the century as well).

On the other hand, I wouldn't want Wish to be used for permanent character boosts of that magnitude. IIRC in some past editions it could be used to get a +1 ASI, but that in 5e isn't worth a Wish IMHO. I would allow it however for temporary boosts, even if they appear gamebreaking. So instead of looking for a "punishment" (horrible idea) I would look for a limitation: have the target PC gain a grandiose boost that lasts long enough to cover the boss battle, so that they can indeed "save the day", and then go back to normal.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

• Another interpretation can be to convert the Eldritch knight into a true spellcaster - effectively rewriting the entire character sheet, but obviously removing some Fighter skills/proficiencies. Maybe turn the Eldritch Knight into a Warlock where the sorcerer that cast the Wish is the patron. This might mess up the relation at the table though, so be careful.

yup i am BIG on letting players rewrite reality sometimes by mistake.

I would give the fighter the option of a 'save negates' but tell him he has to redraw his character as an equal level bladesinger wizard... but keepings 3rd attack (but no other fighter featers)

 

[ovks22]

'Full potential' is an open thing. I wouldn't say its saying 5-9 spellslots because, that's not full potential, that's just 'doing what a wizard does' with no look at the fighting side.

I'd probably give them a custom spell that blends melee and spellwork and is themed around that. Powerful but not out of line for spells they have. Probably themed around firing sword lasers in traditional Zelda fashion, and themed around being able to fire off as an eldritch knight.

After saying the full potential thing he specified the spell slots thing, basically give the Eldritch Knight the spells lots of a wizard, not sure how should I manage a penalty for the sorcerer for such a great wish

 

[jgsugden]

I'd consider going back to the Rules as Written and follow along the advice of Baldurs_Underdark above - Accept that the impact that these spells have on the game at this level is intended, and creates a different environment. Embrace the difference. The game evolves as PCs advance and become more powerful. it is intended. In the DMG they discuss the different tiers of play and how DMs might approach it. Consider listening to a bit of Critical Role towards the end of campaign 1 to see how Matt Mercer approached PCs with this level of power.

In terms of the Eldritch Knight focused wish and a slightly overpowered wish option as you describe, I'd give the Eldritch Knight 1 spell known for each of levels 5 through 9, and the same spell slots as the sorcerer has - but any that are in excess of what he currently has do not get recovered with a long rest.

This seems strong, but it is on par with casting simulacrum on the sorcerer themself.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'd consider going back to the Rules as Written and follow along the advice of Baldurs_Underdark above - Accept that the impact that these spells have on the game at this level is intended, and creates a different environment. Embrace the difference.

well this too. I mean it really is just a shadow magic that duplicates lower level spells most times.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Hi im a relatively new DM, and the party im Dming for just got to lvl 16, there are 2 sorceres in the party and they both picked wish, i told them that i would allow only one wish per character and the whole party was ok with it because it seamed a bit op, in compensation i said i would be a bit more flexible with the wishes (allow more powerful stuff to be wished), but depending on how big the wish was (and if the wish was approved) the consequences for the caster would be greater. Everything was going well, the first sorcerer asked for help, in a very dificult boss battle, i granted it and all was well, the problem came with the second sorcerer who asked to unlock the fighter's (Eldritch Knight) full potential, meaning that he wishes for her to be able to have spells slot from lvl 5 to 9 because Eldritch Knights only get from 1to 4, this happened as they were entering another boss battle but it was cut as soon as the wish was made because the sorcerer had an emergency, the thing is that i dont think is that far fetched of a wish, but i do think his character should recibe a heavy or permanent punishment for this. Any ideas what the punishment or permanent handicap should be? Thanks in advance

what about giving them access to their 20th level spellslot casting capacity and converting all the available spell slots into 4th level slots so they're casting everything at the highest possible level for an eldritch knight (unless they specifically state they're casting a spell at a lower level) that only boils down to 11 level 4 spell slots in total, i don't know if this would be too powerful to keep after the fight considering it's the result of a single use wish spell?
EDIT: if you really do want to 'punish' the sorcerer maybe subtract the standard 20th level eldrich knight 4/3/3/1 level 1-4 spell slots from the sorcerer's own casting capacity? or maybe 3/2/2/1 so you don't remove all of their 1st to 3rd level spell slots?

 

[MarkB]

Well, the consequences seem straightforward here - the character wants his buddy to gain 5th-9th level spell slots, which is beyond the power of the Wish, so those slots have to come from somewhere else. More specifically, from someone else. A certain sorcerer, perhaps?

 

[Ovinomancer]

So, I had two ideas, but I'd most likely go with the first:

1. Given the EK character 17th level wizard spellcasting. Straight out. Let them pick a few spells (following EK restrictions on schools) to pad it out. BUT, it's temporary -- they get the slots but the magic can't quite make it permanent, so once they cast any slot over their normal EK ability they cannot recover it. Cast that's 8th level slot? Gone for good. Any spell picked that no longer has a slot that it can be cast into similarly disappears from understanding. They also cannot memorize new spells from any source -- effectively they're boosted to a 17th wizard in a blazing instant of understanding, but then it's gone, and once they use the gifts they're gone as well. Immediately level the bad consequences from wish onto the caster.

2. Strip all spellcasting above 10th level from the caster of the wish and give it to the EK. The caster cannot recover these abilities until the EK uses them, at which point the EK loses access to the slots and the caster can regain them. Immediately level the bad consequences from the wish onto the caster.

IN ANY CASE, make the stakes known to the player and allow them to reconsider the wish. This is a case of unclear communication about the scope of available wishes and the consequences of them where it seems the players and GM are perhaps on different pages. That's a bad place to be for leveling consequences because that mismatch means that the players are very likely to feel blindsided, especially if consequences are harsh. Since you introduced the idea of more powerful single use wish, but it doesn't seem there was a followup on the scope of what that meant, I'd be cautious in how you make choices here absent an open discussion with the players.

 

[Jer]

the problem came with the second sorcerer who asked to unlock the fighter's (Eldritch Knight) full potential, meaning that he wishes for her to be able to have spells slot from lvl 5 to 9 because Eldritch Knights only get from 1to 4,

I mean, as a DM I'd probably say that the Eldritch Knight's full potential as far as spells are concerned is the spellcasting of a 20th level Eldritch knight (and so they get those spell slots early - at 16th level it's not going to matter that much, especially if you also have two full sorcerers on the team).

the thing is that i dont think is that far fetched of a wish, but i do think his character should recibe a heavy or permanent punishment for this. Any ideas what the punishment or permanent handicap should be? Thanks in advance

However if you want to go down this route and give the Eldritch Knight those spell levels, the question is what do you mean by "punishment"? Do you mean the cost in-world for making this wish, or do you want to make that wish mechanically balanced in some way? Or both?

If balance is on your mind - both because magic has a cost and mechanically in game - you could rule that the Eldritch Knight and the sorcerer who made the wish now share the sorcerer's spell slots of 5th level and above through the mystical connection of the wish. The sorcerer has now unlocked the EK's "full potential" by sharing some of their own magic power with them. The sorcerer doesn't lose them outright, but now they're sharing their power with someone else.

If you want to have a story idea for it, the EK could instead unlock one spell of each level from 5th to 9th as they level up from levels 16 to 20 but each of those spells are actually stolen from some powerful entity who is going to come looking for the person who stole that magic from them and eventually trace it back to the sorcerer who made the wish..