D&D (2024) What spells should be dropped?

[Scott Christian]

Ok Hallucinatory Terrain, I don't get. In 3.5 it was a 30' cube per level so you'd get 7 of these when you could first cast it. I know WotC decided Caster Level was some kind of sin ("How dare you get more mileage out of low level spell slots at higher level!") but even if it's really a 150 x 150 x 150 cube, it still sucks because it's not shapeable! Add to this the fact that anyone entering the area can pretty much instantly know it's an illusion, it's sharply limited in it's utility.

Can you make use of this spell? Probably, but given that even the best uses (masking dangerous or deadly terrain) are only marginally effective (you can make that lake of lava look like a clear pond, but it's still going to be hot, and there will see be sulfurous fumes), there's no way this is a 4th-level spell effect. And you can't even upcast it!

And yet, if you wanted save the dryad tree that rests in the middle of a field from being cut down, you could. If you wanted to hide the hobbit house, you could. And if you wanted to send the fifty soldiers down the other canyon without even a check, you could. And don't even get me started on areas that have fog or darkness.
It is a useful spell. Perhaps some of you have just not had the opportunity to use it.

 

[tetrasodium]

And yet, if you wanted save the dryad tree that rests in the middle of a field from being cut down, you could. If you wanted to hide the hobbit house, you could. And if you wanted to send the fifty soldiers down the other canyon without even a check, you could. And don't even get me started on areas that have fog or darkness.
It is a useful spell. Perhaps some of you have just not had the opportunity to use it.

It has a 24 hour duration. Those examples require permanency or constant recasting, you still need the GM to extend the spell into something functional for them.

There wass a reason for the spell, but that reason has been missing for many years now. Back in 2e it was 10 yard/level cube & 1hr/level duration, that's important because of how recovery worked back then. Spells could be recovered with 10 minutes of study or prayer per spell level of the spell & with very high con you could recover ~1hp per 6 turns (1hour). Having a storage unit sized bit of terrain that looks like fallen rocks or whatever concealing the entrance to a room where the group is holed up trying to rest a bit affords them a better chance of being overlooked & maybe a chance to ready themselves for an interruption


Recovery doesn't work that way anymore though & the spell has been casting about in hopes of a new purpose while ignoring that mirage arcane already mechanically covers that purpose

 

[James Gasik]

And yet, if you wanted save the dryad tree that rests in the middle of a field from being cut down, you could. If you wanted to hide the hobbit house, you could. And if you wanted to send the fifty soldiers down the other canyon without even a check, you could. And don't even get me started on areas that have fog or darkness.
It is a useful spell. Perhaps some of you have just not had the opportunity to use it.

Ok, but what you're failing to account for is the opportunity cost of spells like this. You get two new spells at each level. When you hit 7th level, even if you're a School of Illusion Wizard, you're not taking this. You're taking Greater Invisibility and Phantasmal Killer.

Now maybe at 8th level, you could take it, but at that point you're turning up your nose at Banishment, Confusion, Dimension Door, Divination Ego Whip, Evard's Black Tentacles, etc. etc..

So now to get this spell, you're hoping to learn it through other means. But wait, there's more!

Spells like Fabricate, Guards and Wards, and yes, Hallucinatory Terrain aren't things you just have prepared every day of the week. You have a limited amount of prepared spells to work with, so now Hallucinatory Terrain has to meet the following requirements to be useful:

1) you had the opportunity to learn the spell after getting all of the more useful ones.
2) you managed to work the spell into your prepared spells list for the day.
3) the actual situation where this would be more useful than any other spell you know.

Can this happen? Sure. And I might also occasionally need Guards and Wards to fortify an abandoned keep to hold off bandits, or Fabricate to turn a bunch of scrap into useful weapons to arm a village. But this isn't something you use on a standard adventuring day, or even more than once per adventure, most likely.

 

[James Gasik]

It has a 24 hour duration. Those examples require permanency or constant recasting, you still need the GM to extend the spell into something functional for them.

There wass a reason for the spell, but that reason has been missing for many years now. Back in 2e it was 10 yard/level cube & 1hr/level duration, that's important because of how recovery worked back then. Spells could be recovered with 10 minutes of study or prayer per spell level of the spell & with very high con you could recover ~1hp per 6 turns (1hour). Having a storage unit sized bit of terrain that looks like fallen rocks or whatever concealing the entrance to a room where the group is holed up trying to rest a bit affords them a better chance of being overlooked & maybe a chance to ready themselves for an interruption


Recovery doesn't work that way anymore though & the spell has been casting about in hopes of a new purpose while ignoring that mirage arcane already mechanically covers that purpose

To be fair, you do have to be a lot higher level to cast Mirage Arcana. That's why I didn't bring up, say, Major Image upcast to 6th level. I'll grant that no spell is completely useless, but there are spells where better choices exist.

Maybe if the Wizard could just completely overhaul their spell list on a given day like the Cleric, you could justify super niche spells, but if WotC did that, you could hear the cries of dismay from space!

 

[Micah Sweet]

Ok, but what you're failing to account for is the opportunity cost of spells like this. You get two new spells at each level. When you hit 7th level, even if you're a School of Illusion Wizard, you're not taking this. You're taking Greater Invisibility and Phantasmal Killer.

Now maybe at 8th level, you could take it, but at that point you're turning up your nose at Banishment, Confusion, Dimension Door, Divination Ego Whip, Evard's Black Tentacles, etc. etc..

So now to get this spell, you're hoping to learn it through other means. But wait, there's more!

Spells like Fabricate, Guards and Wards, and yes, Hallucinatory Terrain aren't things you just have prepared every day of the week. You have a limited amount of prepared spells to work with, so now Hallucinatory Terrain has to meet the following requirements to be useful:

1) you had the opportunity to learn the spell after getting all of the more useful ones.
2) you managed to work the spell into your prepared spells list for the day.
3) the actual situation where this would be more useful than any other spell you know.

Can this happen? Sure. And I might also occasionally need Guards and Wards to fortify an abandoned keep to hold off bandits, or Fabricate to turn a bunch of scrap into useful weapons to arm a village. But this isn't something you use on a standard adventuring day, or even more than once per adventure, most likely.

Why does not normally using a spell in a standard adventuring day lead to its exclusion from the spell list? Spells are magic things a caster can do in the setting in my view. They don't, and shouldn't have to be, forced into the "most useful for the adventuring day" mold.

 

[Scott Christian]

It has a 24 hour duration. Those examples require permanency or constant recasting, you still need the GM to extend the spell into something functional for them.

All those examples I gave can be useful without permanence. The group of evil mercenaries marching that want firewood, the group of evil orcs marching along the road near the hobbit house, the soldiers marching past the canyon as it splits. Once any of these dangers pass, the dryad might gift something. The hobbit might go on to expand your reputation. The soldiers going by might allow you to run back out of the canyon and escape. All extremely useful for those situations.

I get you want it to be better. But better for your table will not always be better for other tables.

If that is what you want out of the spell, I know very few DMs that would say no in having your PC build, quest, or just have the spell how you want it. But right now, it fits the average table just fine.

 

[Yaarel]

All those examples I gave can be useful without permanence.

In character optimization when ranking the relative value of various options, there is a concept called "situational usefulness".

Even if a feature is pretty good, if the opportunities to use this feature are too infrequent (too situational), the feature gets ranked the same as a "poor" feature.


Ideally, the option is usable almost every single encounter. But if a feature is useful about once per gaming session, that is ok if the feature is particularly good.

If a feature is likely only to get used once during an entire level, that infrequency starts to be problematic, to point of worthless.

A feature that is used less than once per level, is a non-starter.

 

[James Gasik]

Why does not normally using a spell in a standard adventuring day lead to its exclusion from the spell list? Spells are magic things a caster can do in the setting in my view. They don't, and shouldn't have to be, forced into the "most useful for the adventuring day" mold.

Spell bloat. I mean think about it, WotC makes more spells than any other player-facing option. We got them to stop printing 5000 Feats, books and books of useless weapons and armor no one will ever use, and 3 new 20-level classes per sourcebook.

Do we really want there to be spells for every conceivable scenario, to add to the already impressive narrative power of spellcasters? You know, like in 2e and 3e?

 

[tetrasodium]

All those examples I gave can be useful without permanence. The group of evil mercenaries marching that want firewood, the group of evil orcs marching along the road near the hobbit house, the soldiers marching past the canyon as it splits. Once any of these dangers pass, the dryad might gift something. The hobbit might go on to expand your reputation. The soldiers going by might allow you to run back out of the canyon and escape. All extremely useful for those situations.

I get you want it to be better. But better for your table will not always be better for other tables.

If that is what you want out of the spell, I know very few DMs that would say no in having your PC build, quest, or just have the spell how you want it. But right now, it fits the average table just fine.

is your PC going to retire & keep casting it daily? It would be a stretch to call HT useful once a level or even once a campaign without the old recovery rules it synergized with. At a certain point the spell is so niche that it's not going to be available even if the niche comes up.

 

[Scott Christian]

Ok, but what you're failing to account for is the opportunity cost of spells like this. You get two new spells at each level. When you hit 7th level, even if you're a School of Illusion Wizard, you're not taking this. You're taking Greater Invisibility and Phantasmal Killer.

Now maybe at 8th level, you could take it, but at that point you're turning up your nose at Banishment, Confusion, Dimension Door, Divination Ego Whip, Evard's Black Tentacles, etc. etc..

All of this should say I, meaning you as a player. I find it interesting when players/DMs tell others how to play. Let's go through some examples:

You are a DM. You have a new player who has been having a great time. They love their character and your setting and your adventures. The player's character can now finally take a 4th level spell. They want to take Hallucinatory Terrain. They didn't ask you. Theat is the spell they are interested in, because in their mind, it will be cool.

Now, are you as a DM going to tell them, no? Are you going to tell them what spells to take? Are you going to coerce them or steer them to take Greater Invisibility or Phantasmal Killer? Or are you going to make sure they may have a time to shine using the spell they chose?

You see, when it comes to spells, you are only partially right. Yes, those other spells might be a bit better. But they are better for your table and your players. They may not be better for this player's character or their DM.

So now to get this spell, you're hoping to learn it through other means. But wait, there's more!

Spells like Fabricate, Guards and Wards, and yes, Hallucinatory Terrain aren't things you just have prepared every day of the week. You have a limited amount of prepared spells to work with, so now Hallucinatory Terrain has to meet the following requirements to be useful:

1) you had the opportunity to learn the spell after getting all of the more useful ones.
2) you managed to work the spell into your prepared spells list for the day.
3) the actual situation where this would be more useful than any other spell you know.

You are right about this. These things do have to come together. It is the same as with any other spell. What about the wizard that takes a bunch of damage spells, and then, the entire session is RP? How about the one that takes a bunch of exploration style spells, and then the whole session is combat? It is a gamble. It's one of the reasons why having more spells is such a powerful dynamic to a class's build. It allows diversification, which, in my mind at least, is much greater than an extra d6 damage per round. But for many, it is the opposite. That is because we play at different tables.