D&D 5E (+)What Ubiquitous DnD Tropes Get It Totally Wrong?

[doctorbadwolf]

Also, spellbook notation isn't exactly a language meant to convey messages other than technical instructions of how to cast a specific spell. In modern terms, it would be more like a programming language than a natural language.

Trying to communicate via spellbook notation would be like trying to write a letter in Assembly code or COBOL.

That is a way to look at it. Certainly not the only way.

 

[Minigiant]

Personally, I've never thought of magic itself being a language, but it's a fine approach. In my games deciphering the text is a process that can be made harder if whoever is doing so doesn't know the original language of the original writer (though that's never actually happened to a player).

The closest the 5e PHB touches on it is a mention that spellcasters frequently study in draconic, as mentioned elsewhere in the thread, which I think points to the approach the devs took on it.

It's less of a true language and more entering the cheat codes of reality. Back when the Weave was the thing, Arcane spellcasting was formulas that trick the Weave into bending reality. Gods being gods can tap into the pure form directly and just give it to their clerics.

Then Truenaming entered D&D and wizardry became more like "speaking the language of reality like a drunk idiot"

Now WOTC is toying with the Song of Reality like the building blocks of making can be sung.

So Wizardy seems less like a spoken language and more like a form of math or programming. That kinda means a sorcerer's soul and blood in lined with leet haxxor magic code.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

Ahh, but “it’s easier to be evil” leaves room for one willing to walk the hard path to be good. I have no problem with gnolls and orcs being predominantly evil, I only take issue with there being no possibility of individual examples of non-evil. If we can have Drizt, we should be able to have similar examples of good gnolls and orcs.

Hey I made a thread about that a while ago. Was kinda small, but got some good discussion in there.

As for Orcs and Drow and stuff, I kinda see it like people who were born and raised in a cult/brutal dictatorship/something similar. With Gruumsh and his family or the Dark Seldarine being like Jim Jones/The Kim family. Get them out from under the corrupting influence of these gods and you got some valuable additions to a community (minus the standard jerks that come with basically every group of people).

And in a world that could be the thing. Maybe the orcs in your world originated from Gruumsh, but are no longer connected to him. Plus, that could lead to a fun adventure of Gruumsh wanting "his" people back or something.

 

[Oofta]

Hey I made a thread about that a while ago. Was kinda small, but got some good discussion in there.

As for Orcs and Drow and stuff, I kinda see it like people who were born and raised in a cult/brutal dictatorship/something similar. With Gruumsh and his family or the Dark Seldarine being like Jim Jones/The Kim family. Get them out from under the corrupting influence of these gods and you got some valuable additions to a community (minus the standard jerks that come with basically every group of people).

And in a world that could be the thing. Maybe the orcs in your world originated from Gruumsh, but are no longer connected to him. Plus, that could lead to a fun adventure of Gruumsh wanting "his" people back or something.

First, that's completely 100% okay.

But ... then it makes orcs a creature that gets attacked on sight* because they look funny and come from a different culture.

Personally I find that more troubling.

*In most fiction anyway. While elves and dwarves may not always get along one thing they do agree on is hatred of orcs as an example.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

First, that's completely 100% okay.

But ... then it makes orcs a creature that gets attacked on sight* because they look funny and come from a different culture.

Personally I find that more troubling.

*In most fiction anyway. While elves and dwarves may not always get along one thing they do agree on is hatred of orcs as an example.

I mean, you could just... say that people don't attack them and they are a normal part of the world?

There are enough things in D&D that are "kill on sight" that are non-humanoid that you could use as The Everpresent Threat Upon All That Is Good, (any abberration is a good start) aside from humanoids who just decide to be jerks.

 

[Oofta]

I mean, you could just... say that people don't attack them and they are a normal part of the world?

It's fine. I'll just go back to ignoring this line of discussion ... it's been a long day and I just don't care any more.

It is in practically every fantasy novel that I've read: orcs evil. Call me a traditionalist I don't have a problem with some creatures being monsters just because they're roughly humanoid in shape.

 

[Hussar]

Phew, thread exploded a bit. I'm still lagging behind, so, I'm probably ninja'd, but, I did want to address this.

I agree that races (and worlds) in Sci-Fi are often too homogeneous.

I disagree though on orcs, depending on campaign assumptions. They're a race created by a god that was pissed at the other gods, their nature is part of who and what they are.

In my campaign orcs are not humans with masks any more than a tiger is an overgrown housecat. They are chaotic, they are evil. Yes there are farmer orcs, but their preference is to do raids to get slaves to do their work. They have to raid on a regular basis because the slaves don't last long and so on.

Where do you draw the line? In the Aliens movies, were the xenomorphs just misunderstood? Is there some poet xenomorph that just wants to write about trees? Do some vampires sparkle in the sun?

So yes, for monster races in my campaign, nature overrides nurture pretty much every time. Orcs are not real, nor are they people. They're orcs.

The xeno morphs were presented as straight up monsters. They don't have a culture or a language. They aren't intelligent, tool using creatures. The only real world analogy we can make is to animals. Smart animals maybe, but, animals nonetheless. Orcs may not be real, but, they are intelligent, tool using, clearly sentient beings with a culture and a history and are presented as such.

Meh. I don't think being humanoid makes orcs human. If xenomorphs (I was thinking Sci-Fi) aren't a good example what about werewolves (when shifted)? Vampires? Ghouls? Harpies? Red Dragons? Beholders? Demons?

I agree. You don't need to be humanoid. But, intelligent, tool using beings with a clear history and culture DOES make them human analogues. Werewolves, vampires, ghouls, harpies, etc, don't have a culture or a history, or, frequently in the case of undead or demons, a choice about being evil. They aren't born, they are cursed. Red dragons aren't depicted as having culture, creating art or stories of their own.

It's the depiction of a culture as evil that is the problem, not the physical description.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

It's fine. I'll just go back to ignoring this line of discussion ... it's been a long day and I just don't care any more.

It is in practically every fantasy novel that I've read: orcs evil. Call me a traditionalist I don't have a problem with some creatures being monsters just because they're roughly humanoid in shape.

That's fine too, just remember that other people might fight something off about it. Same with me probably.

I just find people/things that choose to be evil, than things that are evil in their nature, although things that are literally made of Evil (fiends and such) to also be interesting.

 

[Oofta]

That's fine too, just remember that other people might fight something off about it. Same with me probably.

I just find people/things that choose to be evil, than things that are evil in their nature, although things that are literally made of Evil (fiends and such) to also be interesting.

See ... but that's part of what I have a problem with. Everybody is okay with fiends or beholders or ghouls being evil ... but orcs? Heaven's to Betsy how dare you! Devils are evil because they are! But devils are also intelligent, have a culture. A succubus looks human but we all know she's not because she was made evil. Orcs made to be evil like it says they were in the MM? Nope!

Orcs are not real. They can be anything the fiction demands. If you want them to be not CE as listed in the MM more power to you. I just don't see a reason to change it.

Gah .. anyway. I need to finish what I'm supposed to be working on instead of letting myself get distracted.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

See ... but that's part of what I have a problem with. Everybody is okay with fiends or beholders or ghouls being evil ... but orcs? Heaven's to Betsy how dare you! Devils are evil because they are! But devils are also intelligent, have a culture. A succubus looks human but we all know she's not because she was made evil. Orcs made to be evil like it says they were in the MM? Nope!

Orcs are not real. They can be anything the fiction demands. If you want them to be not CE as listed in the MM more power to you. I just don't see a reason to change it.

Gah .. anyway. I need to finish what I'm supposed to be working on instead of letting myself get distracted.

You may not, but other people do.

Everything in this universe is subjective.