What would change for you if Wizards started calling it 6E?

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

I have no idea, your guess is as good as mine. It does not really matter to me, so I do not spend much time trying to figure this out. If you want an answer, I expect somewhere around 50/50 or 60/40 in favor of 2024, but that can easily be wrong.

I also do not see how this is at all relevant to the discussion we are having (outside of all this being moot if 100% picked 2014 or 2024).

if it;s a 60/40 or 50/50 split how is that not the same divide there would be if it was an edition change?

 

[mamba]

if it;s a 60/40 or 50/50 split how is that not the same divide there would be if it was an edition change?

Why does the percentage of the divide matter for this? What makes it an edition change is that it is not compatible with what came before and if you make the switch, then you cannot use the old material and vice versa. This is not the case, hence no edition change.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

Why does the percentage of the divide matter for this? What makes it an edition change is that it is not compatible with what came before and if you make the switch, then you cannot use the old material and vice versa. This is not the case, hence no edition change.

I agree with the first half... the amount of who changes isn't a issue... the split is.
again so far all we have seen or heard is adventure back compatible, so I still don't see how this "if you don't switch" new stuff will support the old on any player facing content

 

[mamba]

I agree with the first half... the amount of who changes isn't a issue... the split is.
again so far all we have seen or heard is adventure back compatible, so I still don't see how this "if you don't switch" new stuff will support the old on any player facing content

I am with you, the next Xanathar will be for the 2024 version, there won't be subclasses for the 2014 version.

I do not see a problem here. Players can pick any Warlock subclass from any supplement. Why does it matter that the new ones will be built more along the 2024 lines?

If they released the same changes in a book that is not called PHB, would that make a difference to you / still be 5e?

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

I am with you, the next Xanathar will be for the 2024 version, there won't be subclasses for the 2014 version.

that is the same line for editions... 1e/2e and 3e/3.5

I do not see a problem here. Players can pick any Warlock subclass from any supplement. Why does it matter that the new ones will be built more along the 2024 lines?

becuse the 2014 no longer is supported going forward

If they released the same changes in a book that is not called PHB, would that make a difference to you / still be 5e?

if they keep it as optional it's fine, when they say all future books will use the new stuff that tells me there is a break

 

[mamba]

that is the same line for editions... 1e/2e and 3e/3.5

maybe, I do not consider this relevant. It was a marketing decision then, it is one now.

becuse the 2014 no longer is supported going forward

they can be used in all new adventures, that is support. If WotC would not release any new subclasses at all, only settings, monster manuals and adventures, would that mean 5e is no longer supported?

if they keep it as optional it's fine, when they say all future books will use the new stuff that tells me there is a break

it is optional, all future books do not use the new stuff. Adventures etc. will be independent of this. The only thing you are really talking about at that point are additional subclass options. Yes, those will look more like the 2024 subclasses.

At least I now understand where you are coming from. To me new subclasses in the 2014 'format' are not the deciding factor, so to me this is not an edition change.

 

[Azzy]

This is the best example of why I think it’s a new edition in late 80s early 90s I got the 2e PHB and we had to teach ourselves how to play. It was 94ish before I met anyone who had played 1e. However once I did I found many of them that brought over ideas and concepts (the assassin the monk and the half orc) you know what none of them ever did. None of them handed me a 1e PHB and said “just use this” they all had their own house rule/homebrew version of 2e monk.
3e brought back monk and half orc and introduced assassin as a prestige class. However then the thing I started to hear about was 1e rangers had arcane and divine spells.
It was around the 2nd ish year of 3e that I even saw a 1e PHB. And when I read it I understood why no one just ported monk or half orc 1 for 1.
I also had friends I made at con’s who during 3e era still played 1e. Some of them took ideas from 2e and even 3e into 1 e but none just took pages right out of either PHB and handed those out as “use this”

Anecdotally, my groups and I played 1e before 2e was published. When 2e came out we mixed the editions, using from 1e what was missing in 2e.

Looking at the playtest I see the same thing. There WILL be people who cross them but over time it will be less and less. By 2026 I have no doubt that talking on here about pact magic will be relocated to “legacy gaming” not “current gaming”

Oh, I'm sure that playing with the 2014 will phase out at some point. I can't make predictions on how the forums will be, though.

Now some people want to play word games and say that isn’t an editon change but a rose by any other name still smells like a rose.

Jeremy Crawford said that the revised core will be a "new editions of the books", but not a "new edition of the game". I'm entirely sympathetic because I assume WotC doesn't want to use "edition" because, under their stewardship, they have previously poisoned the word to mean an "entirely new game system". So, yeah, going by that, no, it's not a new edition—this isn't a new system, it'd an revision and iteration of the existing one.

 

[DEFCON 1]

because the 2014 no longer is supported going forward

What "support" do you need? More "stuff" for your 2014 Warlock? The current amount of "stuff" for the 2014E Warlock is not enough for you? You can't make any more 2014E Warlocks because you've run through everything?

Well then... maybe you just need to make up your own "stuff" then. Create some more "stuff" with your DM so that you both are good with the new "stuff" your 2014E Warlock can use. Or just take some of the "stuff" from the 2024E Warlock and a few minutes of time to nudge it so that the 2014E Warlock can also use it.

But yes... whatever it ends up being... you will indeed have to do this yourself. You won't have WotC doing any of this for you going forward anymore. But that's just what happens when new rules are created. The rules creators no longer create stuff for the old stuff and if anyone wants to keep playing the old stuff, they just have to do the work themselves. Or at least in this internet-age... scour the internet for other people who have done the work for you to create new old stuff and you can just use that.

The game is moving on from the 2014E Warlock. Like it or not. So while it's fine to spend all your time bemoaning this fact and hoping against hope that WotC won't move on (which-- spoiler alert-- is not going to happen, they most definitely are moving to the 2024E Warlock)... your time might better be suited starting to work out for yourself just how much "support" you think a 2014E Warlock might need in a 2024E game and put your energy towards creating that stuff instead.

 

[Older Beholder]

The biggest change for me if they called it 6E would be that I’d wait till the books were out, and then read reviews to see if I wanted to update to the new edition. The way it is I’ll be getting the PHB and MM upon release. (and will wait for the DMG to come up before deciding)

 

[Micah Sweet]

What "support" do you need? More "stuff" for your 2014 Warlock? The current amount of "stuff" for the 2014E Warlock is not enough for you? You can't make any more 2014E Warlocks because you've run through everything?

Well then... maybe you just need to make up your own "stuff" then. Create some more "stuff" with your DM so that you both are good with the new "stuff" your 2014E Warlock can use. Or just take some of the "stuff" from the 2024E Warlock and a few minutes of time to nudge it so that the 2014E Warlock can also use it.

But yes... whatever it ends up being... you will indeed have to do this yourself. You won't have WotC doing any of this for you going forward anymore. But that's just what happens when new rules are created. The rules creators no longer create stuff for the old stuff and if anyone wants to keep playing the old stuff, they just have to do the work themselves. Or at least in this internet-age... scour the internet for other people who have done the work for you to create new old stuff and you can just use that.

The game is moving on from the 2014E Warlock. Like it or not. So while it's fine to spend all your time bemoaning this fact and hoping against hope that WotC won't move on (which-- spoiler alert-- is not going to happen, they most definitely are moving to the 2024E Warlock)... your time might better be suited starting to work out for yourself just how much "support" you think a 2014E Warlock might need in a 2024E game and put your energy towards creating that stuff instead.

But they're not moving on from the 2014 warlock. They've sworn up and down that you can keep using it. If they had faith in their designs and weren't so convinced people would stop buying their products, the new books would actually replace the old ones, if they really thought they were better. Or they would create a new class with a similar theme to the warlock, put it in a new book full of new classes that do the same thing with the other PH material, and release it as a new starting point for 5e that you can use as an alternative to the PH.

Something like a "5e Essentials".

 

[mamba]

They've sworn up and down that you can keep using it. If they had faith in their designs and weren't so convinced people would stop buying their products, the new books would actually replace the old ones, if they really thought they were better.

they can be certain that the new ones are better and be certain that a not insignificant percentage of the player base will not switch regardless.

It has always been up to the players to decide whether they are replacing an old edition with a new one, or stick to the old edition. WotC is simply acknowledging this now and making sure that those staying with the old version are not abandoned.

new book full of new classes that do the same thing with the other PH material, and release it as a new starting point for 5e that you can use as an alternative to the PH.

Something like a "5e Essentials".

other than the name, that is what we get

 

[Micah Sweet]

they can be certain that the new ones are better and be certain that a not insignificant percentage of the player base will not switch regardless.

It has always been up to the players to decide whether they are replacing an old edition with a new one, or stick to the old edition. WotC is simply acknowledging this now and making sure that those staying with the old version are not abandoned.


other than the name, that is what we get

The names make a difference. I know you don't believe this, but not everyone thinks like you.

 

[mamba]

The names make a difference. I know you don't believe this, but not everyone thinks like you.

There are three cases here

1) a group moves to 2024 or starts with it, no name confusion
2) a group stays with 2014, no name confusion
3) a group mixes both 2014 and 2024 due to player preferences. Still no confusion, as they know what they are doing

In conversations it might need a little discipline (include 2014 / 2024, old / new, or whatever). Outside of that, no issues.

The name issue is vastly overrated imo

 

[Clint_L]

Jeremy Crawford said that the revised core will be a "new editions of the books", but not a "new edition of the game". I'm entirely sympathetic because I assume WotC doesn't want to use "edition" because, under their stewardship, they have previously poisoned the word to mean an "entirely new game system". So, yeah, going by that, no, it's not a new edition—this isn't a new system, it'd an revision and iteration of the existing one.

Respectfully, that’s not on WotC, though. TSR created this mess back in the 1970s. They went to court to argue that AD&D was an entirely new game, so they could stop paying royalties to Dave Arneson, losing the case but creating the paradigm that WotC is finally, thankfully trying to get rid of.

As consumers, we should be 100% behind WotC on this. Instead of being expected to replace all our books if we want to keep up, we can just keep doing what we’re doing.

 

[DEFCON 1]

But they're not moving on from the 2014 warlock. They've sworn up and down that you can keep using it. If they had faith in their designs and weren't so convinced people would stop buying their products, the new books would actually replace the old ones, if they really thought they were better. Or they would create a new class with a similar theme to the warlock, put it in a new book full of new classes that do the same thing with the other PH material, and release it as a new starting point for 5e that you can use as an alternative to the PH.

Something like a "5e Essentials".

This has nothing to do with what I was responding about.

 

[Velderan]

The names make a difference. I know you don't believe this, but not everyone thinks like you.

At the risk of making it personal, have you ever considered this may just be a you thing? WotC gets a lot of feedback from their player base to help fuel their decision making process and clearly the overall game is drifting further from your taste. It's entirely possible the general playerbase might not view this the way you do, like they don't seem to view the overall game the way you do.

 

[Micah Sweet]

At the risk of making it personal, have you ever considered this may just be a you thing? WotC gets a lot of feedback from their player base to help fuel their decision making process and clearly the overall game is drifting further from your taste. It's entirely possible the general playerbase might not view this the way you do, like they don't seem to view the overall game the way you do.

It may well be that the general player base feels differently (if they even know about this), but that's not the same as your speculation that it's literally just me. If that were true, no other poster would be voicing similar concerns, and a quick glance at the thread will show you that's not the case. This is just a rhetorical argument to discredit my opinion of the situation by implying that I'm all alone.

 

[Faolyn]

There are three cases here

1) a group moves to 2024 or starts with it, no name confusion
2) a group stays with 2014, no name confusion
3) a group mixes both 2014 and 2024 due to player preferences. Still no confusion, as they know what they are doing

In conversations it might need a little discipline (include 2014 / 2024, old / new, or whatever). Outside of that, no issues.

The name issue is vastly overrated imo

Or

4) Group mixes both '14 and '24 for whatever reason, it turns out the rules aren't actually as compatible as they're supposed to be. We won't know until the books come out.

5) Some players only want to play with one version and not the other, causing friction with other players who want to play with the other one or who want to combine them. As an example, people who don't mind playing '14 because they already have the books but are refusing to have anything to do with any new WotC books.

6) Group plays with one version, except for that one guy who didn't get the message and is using the other version and now is super-confused. And since there's no difference in the name and, lets face it, most people aren't going to care about the dates printed in the book because they don't hyperfocus on the game like we forum-dwellers do, they may not even realize how many differences there are, beyond the book's cover.

7) Group goes through the books and decide which version of any particular thing they're going to use (use '14 warlock but '24 warlock archetype, and one spell uses the '14 version while another spell uses the '24 version), creating, as I said, a confusing Frankenstein version of the game that needs to be referred to each time a new PC is created. When the playtests first came out, my group wasn't interested in getting the new version but we had found a few elements we were going to use, like giving '14 rangers expertise in a skill, while ignoring the rest of the '24 ranger. I have to assume that there are going to be other tables who are like this as well, not even taking entire classes or archetypes but fractions of them.

 

[mamba]

Or

these are all just case 3

As to all of your concerns about how they won’t easily mix, you already addressed that yourself

We won't know until the books come out.

so why not wait with the ‘the sky is falling’ chants until then

 

[Faolyn]

these are all just case 3

Except for all the confusion and not knowing what they're doing, sure.

As to all of your concerns about how they won’t easily mix, you already addressed that yourself

Right, by showing how it can cause more confusion.

And my table is one that has good communication skills, have been friends for a long time, have similar mentalities when it comes to gaming. Think about how it could turn out with groups that aren't very good at communicating, have very different ideals for what makes a good character, or who don't even know each other, such as a group who came together only for a rando game on discord found on r/lfg.

so why not wait with the ‘the sky is falling’ chants until then

Considering WotC's track record with over- and under-powered archetypes and spells, and with half-baked rules, it makes a lot more sense to accept there could be problems right now then just assume everything is going to be perfect.