D&D General What Would You Base A non-OGL 5e-alike Game On? (+)

[Minigiant]

I am intrigued by this idea, but instead of having 'levels' having 'tiers,' if I were to design such a system, I'd have character abilities be gated by tier. Mundane, Adventurer, Heroic, Paragon, Epic, and Mythic would be the tiers.

You could thus have games where the tier stays the same the whole way through, and the reward of adventuring is learning new abilities to widen your abilities, rather than increase your power. Or you could have 'zero to hero' games, or maybe something like 'hero to legend' plots. And there could be designs that require certain trials or achievements to go from one tier to the next.

And maybe there'd be designs like, "I'm a Paragon Warrior, but I'm able to pick up a few Adventurer-tier magical abilities. Our Paragon Mage also knows a few Adventurer-tier scoundrel abilities," etc.

That's how "classes" work in the homebrew game one of my groups plays. Classes are tiered. As you level, you can switch to a higher tier class. A Tier 1 Warrior can opt to be a Tier 2 Fighter at level up.

Higher Tier classes are stronger but have fewer action/fate points. Your tier counts against the Power level of the adventure for counting action/fate points. So you could roll with lower tier mundane character with tons of points to lucks your way of of jams.

 

[Faolyn]

One thing I pondered was basing a game of rolling 3d6. Advantage adds a d6. Disadvantage removes a d6. And you criti if you roll two 6s.

But the core would be taking the TOP 20 Class fantasies of 5e and making them the base classes.

As in, champion is a class, eldritch knight is a class, battle master is a class?

I'd go the other way around. Have Warrior as the class. Different types of warriors, or different fighting styles, could be expressed by something akin to a chosen feat or option. Not really an archetype, but similar.

 

[Minigiant]

As in, champion is a class, eldritch knight is a class, battle master is a class?

I'd go the other way around. Have Warrior as the class. Different types of warriors, or different fighting styles, could be expressed by something akin to a chosen feat or option. Not really an archetype, but similar.

Too easy to accidentally copy something OGL and Too easy to copy the flaws of 5e.

Split the Champion, Battlemaster, and Eldritch Knight into their own classes and give them the full class design space to capture their identities. Samewith something like the Beastmaster and Hexblade. Cut them out and make full classes. We aren't bound to WOTC's no "new classes" rules. And doing so helps you separate yourself from 5e OGL more.

 

[Faolyn]

Too easy to accidentally copy something OGL and Too easy to copy the flaws of 5e.

Split the Champion, Battlemaster, and Eldritch Knight into their own classes and give them the full class design space to capture their identities. Samewith something like the Beastmaster and Hexblade. Cut them out and make full classes. We aren't bound to WOTC's no "new classes" rules. And doing so helps you separate yourself from 5e OGL more.

Fair enough. Although I'd worry there'd be a very high risk of some classes definitely outshining others. Like, how would a Champion class be as interesting as a Battlemaster Class? Yes, I know that they wouldn't be taken directly from 5e, but the concept of the "basic fighter" isn't going to be as compelling as "basic fighter, but with maneuvers."

I'm usually up for combining things, taking the most interesting parts of multiple archetypes and making them into a single, more interesting one. Combine Sharpshooter and Arcane Archer. Battle Master, Kensei, and maybe even Hexblade. Battlemaster, Samurai, and Purple Dragon Knight. Champion and Brute. Obviously not taking it directly from them, of course, but the ideas.

(Also, it might be easier if, like a lot of OSR games, this only went up to 10th level.)

 

[DMZ2112]

Advancement beyond 10th level is fine, but the game has to change. It needs to reflect that the players are now the threat, and the adventurers monsters come to them. Gotta build that dungeon stronghold.

Also, my version of this thing would have only four classes and a ton of archetypes for each. Too many different kinds of heroes is difficult to mount a defense against I like clearly organized categories.

::Dungeon Heart beats in the background::

Hush.

 

[RangerWickett]

Yeah I think this is maybe the thinnest needle to thread tbh. Too much “hook” and you’ve got one more specialized game. Not enough and it’s just, “very generic fantasy mechanics bundle”.

I, naturally, have an idea I think will work.

 

[Minigiant]

Fair enough. Although I'd worry there'd be a very high risk of some classes definitely outshining others. Like, how would a Champion class be as interesting as a Battlemaster Class? Yes, I know that they wouldn't be taken directly from 5e, but the concept of the "basic fighter" isn't going to be as compelling as "basic fighter, but with maneuvers."

I'm usually up for combining things, taking the most interesting parts of multiple archetypes and making them into a single, more interesting one. Combine Sharpshooter and Arcane Archer. Battle Master, Kensei, and maybe even Hexblade. Battlemaster, Samurai, and Purple Dragon Knight. Champion and Brute. Obviously not taking it directly from them, of course, but the ideas.

(Also, it might be easier if, like a lot of OSR games, this only went up to 10th level.)

That's why you do it as a full class.

You have 20 levels to make the Champion fun instead of 4. And you are not bogged down with beeing forced to include class features that take up too much class design power.

 

[RangerWickett]

That's why you do it as a full class.

You have 20 levels to make the Champion fun instead of 4. And you are not bogged down with beeing forced to include class features that take up too much class design power.

Or you kinda minimize the whole 'preloaded class options' thing and let people pick abilities so they can make fun characters on their own.

 

[Minigiant]

Or you kinda minimize the whole 'preloaded class options' thing and let people pick abilities so they can make fun characters on their own.

That's the path to either feat option or false choices.

If 5e has taught us anything is that everything isn't swappable. Somethings are not the same same power/flavor or don't have the same design space. If are to make a ne 5e-ish OGL game,its best to learn from the issues of 5end WOTC's management of it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Too easy to accidentally copy something OGL and Too easy to copy the flaws of 5e.

Split the Champion, Battlemaster, and Eldritch Knight into their own classes and give them the full class design space to capture their identities. Samewith something like the Beastmaster and Hexblade. Cut them out and make full classes. We aren't bound to WOTC's no "new classes" rules. And doing so helps you separate yourself from 5e OGL more.

Yeah my current ideal class lineup features 4 classes with roots in the fighter class; brute, knight, swashbuckler, and archer. The Warden is my current name for the swordmage and may be inspired in part by the Paladin, esp with the protective auras, while the Mystic is a more hermetic/occult version of the monk. The Ranger is still the Ranger. Whether there is a Pet Class or not, the Ranger would have an option for an animal companion, probably tied to the spirits of nature rather than a mundane beast.

Since my conception of an assassin class can actually fight (my 5e homebrew gets extra attack), I guess it’s a bit of a rogue/fighter in D&D terms.

But tbh this is a lot. I’m not gonna dive too deep into it until I know the status of the OGL.

Fair enough. Although I'd worry there'd be a very high risk of some classes definitely outshining others. Like, how would a Champion class be as interesting as a Battlemaster Class? Yes, I know that they wouldn't be taken directly from 5e, but the concept of the "basic fighter" isn't going to be as compelling as "basic fighter, but with maneuvers."

Well, if everyone has a resource pool, the champion simply spends it to add to rolls directly, increase intensity of hits, boost defense. Basically, it’s just “spend 1 [resource] to increase the result of a d20 roll by 1d6”. Meanwhile the Battlemaster (what I call the knight) has a combination of stances, techniques, and a mark that can either help it lock down enemies as a tank or give allies extra efficacy against them as a “leader” type.

I'm usually up for combining things, taking the most interesting parts of multiple archetypes and making them into a single, more interesting one. Combine Sharpshooter and Arcane Archer. Battle Master, Kensei, and maybe even Hexblade. Battlemaster, Samurai, and Purple Dragon Knight. Champion and Brute. Obviously not taking it directly from them, of course, but the ideas.

(Also, it might be easier if, like a lot of OSR games, this only went up to 10th level.)

My current idea is, whatever number of types of magic, you also have that number of levels, levels of magical power, etc. so, 9 or 13 or something.

I could be convinced of 13 classes, with way more (mostly) mundane classes than magical focused.

Especially if there isn’t an actual level limit, and you can take a “level” of something that in D&D 5e would be a feat.

 

[RangerWickett]

That's the path to either feat option or false choices.

If 5e has taught us anything is that everything isn't swappable. Somethings are not the same same power/flavor or don't have the same design space. If are to make a ne 5e-ish OGL game,its best to learn from the issues of 5end WOTC's management of it.

I would love to see a game where classes aren't 20 level affairs, but more like "4 useful powers," with prerequisites that are based on whatever the equivalent of "tier" is, but so you can potentially have a lot of suites of abilities that widen your talents without increasing your power.

So like, there'd be, sure, the classic Expert/Mage/Priest/Warrior suite, but they'd only be the "adventurer tier" basic option. You'd get XP that you could spend to learn new abilities in that class, or you could spend a big chunk of XP to add an extra class, but all those abilities would be pretty low-power.

But if you accomplished some milestone (maybe plot-related, maybe just get enough XP), you'd graduate to "heroic tier," and you could start taking classes like "Bard, Rogue; Warlock, Wizard; Cleric, Druid; Fighter, Ranger," etc. Then at "paragon tier" you might get "Arcane Trickster/Shadowdancer, Enclavist/Warcaster, Angel Summoner/BMX Bandit, Juggernaut/Swashbuckler." Or something like that.

Character development would be a mix of "pick a neat cluster of abilities to learn" and "well, I'm done with those, time to pick a new suite to start learning."

You could publish tons and tons of classes, each with the equivalent of 4 levels in a normal class, but they'd all be tightly themed with neat abilities that worked well together.

It just requires planning out a system for how these things can work.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So, I’ve started breaking magical and nonmagical skills into 12 houses, within 4 courts, although I might change that around as it develops. Each house is named for a type of magic, but also has non-magical skills associated with it.

The Courts are compass points (and each house will probably have ordinal directions associated with them), with themes corresponding to the general concepts associated with the 4 suits of the minor arcana.

So each Court has:

• a name, such as The Court of The Dawn
• a Wind (the East Wind, etc)
• a guiding “star” (East is Lucifer or Venus, the Morning Star)
• An element and it’s associated magic skill, Dawn being Wind and Aeromancy
• 2 other magic skills, eg. Dawn also has Mind Magic and Alchemy
• 3 Physical skills and 3 Interaction skills
• A type of Ritual Tool chosen by looking at the tools commonly used as the four suits of the minor arcana in a tarot deck, so Dawn (East, Wind) has the Blade

Meanwhile, each House will have one skill of each of the three categories, a constellation, and a mythic being associated with it.

What this allows for is a solved game of combining and using different types of magic, what skills share metaphysical space between categories, and thus lend themselves to combination, like Aeromancy, Acrobatics, and Linguistics, or Shadow, Stealth, and Deception, and which magic skills combine well and what general philosophy governs adjudication of those types of magic. It gives a logic that you can put on a chart, making it easier to have a magic system that works via magic skills with somewhat loosely defined parameters as opposed to a spell list.

It’s late, so forgive me if that makes little sense.

 

[dave2008]

My current plans are to use PF2e as a base. However, it will take a bit of re-working to simplify it enough for my group. I will wait to see how the current debacle shakes out before I take that on though.

 

[TwoSix]

I would love to see a game where classes aren't 20 level affairs, but more like "4 useful powers," with prerequisites that are based on whatever the equivalent of "tier" is, but so you can potentially have a lot of suites of abilities that widen your talents without increasing your power.

So like, there'd be, sure, the classic Expert/Mage/Priest/Warrior suite, but they'd only be the "adventurer tier" basic option. You'd get XP that you could spend to learn new abilities in that class, or you could spend a big chunk of XP to add an extra class, but all those abilities would be pretty low-power.

But if you accomplished some milestone (maybe plot-related, maybe just get enough XP), you'd graduate to "heroic tier," and you could start taking classes like "Bard, Rogue; Warlock, Wizard; Cleric, Druid; Fighter, Ranger," etc. Then at "paragon tier" you might get "Arcane Trickster/Shadowdancer, Enclavist/Warcaster, Angel Summoner/BMX Bandit, Juggernaut/Swashbuckler." Or something like that.

Character development would be a mix of "pick a neat cluster of abilities to learn" and "well, I'm done with those, time to pick a new suite to start learning."

You could publish tons and tons of classes, each with the equivalent of 4 levels in a normal class, but they'd all be tightly themed with neat abilities that worked well together.

It just requires planning out a system for how these things can work.

That’s almost exactly Shadow of the Demon Lord.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So, I’ve started breaking magical and nonmagical skills into 12 houses, within 4 courts, although I might change that around as it develops. Each house is named for a type of magic, but also has non-magical skills associated with it.

The Courts are compass points (and each house will probably have ordinal directions associated with them), with themes corresponding to the general concepts associated with the 4 suits of the minor arcana.

So each Court has:

• a name, such as The Court of The Dawn
• a Wind (the East Wind, etc)
• a guiding “star” (East is Lucifer or Venus, the Morning Star)
• An element and it’s associated magic skill, Dawn being Wind and Aeromancy
• 2 other magic skills, eg. Dawn also has Mind Magic and Alchemy
• 3 Physical skills and 3 Interaction skills
• A type of Ritual Tool chosen by looking at the tools commonly used as the four suits of the minor arcana in a tarot deck, so Dawn (East, Wind) has the Blade

Meanwhile, each House will have one skill of each of the three categories, a constellation, and a mythic being associated with it.

What this allows for is a solved game of combining and using different types of magic, what skills share metaphysical space between categories, and thus lend themselves to combination, like Aeromancy, Acrobatics, and Linguistics, or Shadow, Stealth, and Deception, and which magic skills combine well and what general philosophy governs adjudication of those types of magic. It gives a logic that you can put on a chart, making it easier to have a magic system that works via magic skills with somewhat loosely defined parameters as opposed to a spell list.

It’s late, so forgive me if that makes little sense.

what i tried and failed to get across last night was, the above allows for magic to be part of the world, tie in to non magical endeavors, and for relative ease of inventing spells as a downtime endeavor.


It also means that the martial skills have cosmological associations, allowing tying martial traditions to things like cardinal winds, elements, associated animals and mythic figures, constellations, etc. in a way that reinforces the lore of the world.

Also also, you can do fun things with Tarot readings. Procedurally generate adventure hooks, tell PC's fortunes, array 22 classes as related to the Major Arcana and to cardinal and ordinal points, and have 1 or 2 that intentionally don't fit. For instance, there is no jack in the tarot deck, so having a class called the Jack can have interesting implications.

 

[Cadence]

Only semi in jest. Are the d21 you can get vaguely balanced? (And how much to get them numbered 0 to 20?)

 

[Faolyn]

Looking at the stuff that @doctorbadwolf has written, I think it's important to decide if you want to create a generic system or a setting along with a system.

 

[Minigiant]

Yeah my current ideal class lineup features 4 classes with roots in the fighter class; brute, knight, swashbuckler, and archer.

I would just split it in 3

One class would be just good at lighting.
One cfighterish class would have a resource and this would fuel their Advanced Fighting Techniques. Being it martial manuevers, tactics, spirit, or swashbuckling. Or melding it with psionics, runes, echoes, chakras, or taint.

Looking at the stuff that @doctorbadwolf has written, I think it's important to decide if you want to create a generic system or a setting along with a system.

Really there' no such thing as a generic system.

Are TTRPGs are based around choosing which tropes are important to the table/community and having the mechanics enforce that trope.

Since mechanics enforce tropes, no RPG can be truly generic.

 

[Faolyn]

Really there' no such thing as a generic system.

Are TTRPGs are based around choosing which tropes are important to the table/community and having the mechanics enforce that trope.

Since mechanics enforce tropes, no RPG can be truly generic.

I disagree, to a point. Yes, mechanics enforce tropes, but some mechanics also enforce settings. For instance, when you said "allowing tying martial traditions to things like cardinal winds, elements, associated animals and mythic figures, constellations, etc. in a way that reinforces the lore of the world" that far more strongly suggests a specific type of setting than saying "fighters have limited spellcasting" and letting the DM or PC decide that it's tied to a wind or element or animal.

 

[Minigiant]

I disagree, to a point. Yes, mechanics enforce tropes, but some mechanics also enforce settings. For instance, when you said "allowing tying martial traditions to things like cardinal winds, elements, associated animals and mythic figures, constellations, etc. in a way that reinforces the lore of the world" that far more strongly suggests a specific type of setting than saying "fighters have limited spellcasting" and letting the DM or PC decide that it's tied to a wind or element or animal.

Those settings are the tropes though.