What would you have done?

[John Morrow]

I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer your questions John, but I can offer an example from the same game that started this thread.

You are as qualified as anyone else in this thread, I'm sure.

Good example.

If the girls could not be found and brought back, or if they were found slain in their service the lives of the soldiers were forfiet. If the girls were found and returned the soldiers lives would be spared, and their sentences altered to 20 years service, upon which time they would then be freed.

If one or more of the girls were found dead, would Lord Morngrym execute the soldiers? Would they be bound and helpless when they were executed? Would this be an Evil act and an alignment violation for him as a Paladin? I assume that the Paladin is not bluffing, since the prisoners can do nothing to improve the odds of the girls being returned alive as prisoners.

Though a lot of other things have happened in the game, the PC's are closing on the known location of two of the girls (in Darkhold), and have information that one of them has been killed already. In truth, all three remain alive.

You, as GM, get to decide if the girls are still alive or not and how happy this ending will be. Would you ever run the scenario such that one or more of the girls are dead and Lord Morngrym carries out the executions? I guess what I'm asking is are you purposely avoiding a potentially unpleasant outcome?

 

[John Morrow]

Not going to pursue this one. Will just say that I've been married 16 years to the most beautiful and perfect woman in the world.

This is why married people (I've been married for 14 years) shouldn't talk about their sex lives. You'll either embarass your partner or make other people jealous. Either way, no good can come of it.

 

[Voadam]

I'm not sure that I'm entirely getting your point.



Again, this may have a lot to do with what I think it takes to become really, truly Evil in my games. You've got to be BAD, VILE SCUM to get there. And once you're there then your life, comfort and dignity are not worth a bucket of warm spit to those who would see the innocent protected.

If I have in some way missed the larger point of your argument then I apologize. If you care to try and clarify it for me further then I'll be happy to respond in kind.

My argument is against the "evil deserves whatever it gets" view. I can easily conceive of excessive evil that I would not feel an evil character deserves to have inflicted upon them.

Take star wars black hat villains, grand moff tarkin, darth vader, emperor palpatine, thugs in the cantina, they are EVIL.

Now have them prisoner or at the mercy of some other villain. Say the guy from Reservoir dogs who sadistically tortures and mutilates. So now do they deserve whatever they get from this other villain? We agree that the person torturing these villains for purely sadistic evil reasons is evil himself and taking evil actions. The torture is not punishment for the victims' evil, it is not done for any good purpose. The torture is wrong. If done to a good or neutral person we would not say the victims deserve it. But the villains being tortured are evil. Do they deserve it? Is there no limit to what evil or crime against human dignity they deserve to have done to them? No degradation, no evil of a sexual nature that would not be deserved?

 

[Rel]

This is why married people (I've been married for 14 years) shouldn't talk about their sex lives. You'll either embarass your partner or make other people jealous. Either way, no good can come of it.

Bah! I've been married almost 10 years and I'm mentioning my sex life right now! It is great but I just wish it would happen in the morning once in a while.

 

[twofalls]

(A) you didn't think the villain's were so bad that they deserved a death sentence, (B) that you didn't feel that the PCs had the moral authority to play judge, jury, and executioner on the spot, or (C) the brutality and cold efficiency of the act? If killing a helpless villain is always Evil, then all executions of prisoners, even with a trial and conviction, are not simply Neutral but Evil. Is that the perspective you want to enforce in your setting?

The group didn't have the moral authority to play judge, jury,and executioner once the active resistance to end their lives had stopped. The fight was over, the prisoners were helpless and had surrendered and given themselves to the mercy of the PC's. The PC's were no longer activly defending their lives or anyone else's (though many on this thread disagree with that point), and the PC's chose not to extend their mercy unless the prisoners gave up information on their comrades. The Mage hadn't surrendered as was evident by the way he invoked the name of the God Bane to try to silence the soldiers through fear. In fact he was taken down by the parties flying Wizard and wrestled to the ground and then bound by the group's fighters. The soldiers had laid down arms voluntarily once the fight was obviously over.

Discussing the execution of prisoners after a fair trial, and if I find that morally reprehsible could be construed by the moderators as talking RL politics, and I've already refused to answer that question once. I'm sorry.

Gnaut the Fighter (the play on his name was intentional by the way) is a mercenary in the game and is played like one. He is a hero in that he risks his life to save those of his comrades and to get the job done he goes to heroic lengths, but he isn't the high moral character that say a LG Fighter would be. His alignment is neutral and he is played as the "grey hero" you mention, so yes there is room in my game for that type of chracter even if I don't personally like them. And I don't personally like Gnaut, I think the character is a bit of a jerk (but he has helped forge a great story and is the most powerful warrior in the game).

Do I pay less attention or award fewer accolades to him because I dislike him? No. In fact Gnaut is the bearer of the relic the "Sword of the Dales" and though he doesn't know it yet he is destined to unite the Dalelands into a single Kingdom and become its first King.

 

[John Morrow]

Bah! I've been married almost 10 years and I'm mentioning my sex life right now! It is great but I just wish it would happen in the morning once in a while.

Yes, and you sound mighty jealous.

And does your spouse know you are talking about what you aren't getting on a public message board designed to be grandmother friend?

 

[Rel]

My argument is against the "evil deserves whatever it gets" view. I can easily conceive of excessive evil that I would not feel an evil character deserves to have inflicted upon them.

Take star wars black hat villains, grand moff tarkin, darth vader, emperor palpatine, thugs in the cantina, they are EVIL.

You can hold whatever views you like.

My personal opinion is that once you blow up a planet, I'm not shedding any tears if you get bent over by the Rancor monster on Viagra.

As I've heard said before, "Somtimes the old Karma Train just runs right the f*** over you."

 

[Rel]

Yes, and you sound mighty jealous.

And does your spouse know you are talking about what you aren't getting on a public message board designed to be grandmother friend?

I'm only moderately jealous.

And I'm afraid that my wife is well aware of the sorts of things I'm likely to say, even when the occasional grandmother is listening. She loves me anyway, probably because I'm so totally hot in the sack.

Either that or because I clean the gutters out.

 

[John Morrow]

The group didn't have the moral authority to play judge, jury,and executioner once the active resistance to end their lives had stopped.

So would it be fair to say that moral authority is what really bothered you, since you've cited an example of a Paladin Lord in your setting ordering a death sentence?

The soldiers had laid down arms voluntarily once the fight was obviously over.

Was this also part of the problem, that you saw them more as "prisoners of war" than primary villains?

Discussing the execution of prisoners after a fair trial, and if I find that morally reprehsible could be construed by the moderators as talking RL politics, and I've already refused to answer that question once. I'm sorry.

That's fine. Please do avoid the real world. But clearly Lord Morngrym, a paladin in your setting, is willing to order executions, correct? So would it be safe to assume, that simply within the context of the game setting, that Good characters can and will execute helpless prisoners without an alignment violation? What I really want to know is whether the issue is really "helplessness" or one of those other issues, because a lot of people seem to be pointing to the helplessness as something that definitely makes it Evil and I'm not sure that's the real problem with everyone.

His alignment is neutral and he is played as the "grey hero" you mention, so yes there is room in my game for that type of chracter even if I don't personally like them. And I don't personally like Gnaut, I think the character is a bit of a jerk (but he has helped forge a great story and is the most powerful warrior in the game).

Have you or would you want to run an entire game where all of the heroes were grey heroes without any Good "conscience" sidekicks to keep them from getting too dark?

 

[twofalls]

If one or more of the girls were found dead, would Lord Morngrym execute the soldiers? Would they be bound and helpless when they were executed? Would this be an Evil act and an alignment violation for him as a Paladin? I assume that the Paladin is not bluffing, since the prisoners can do nothing to improve the odds of the girls being returned alive as prisoners.

Yes he will hang them. No, he is dispensing Justice and IMO this is consistant with his Paladin's code. He must protect the meek, and though he dislikes executions this is his decision. He as the ruler of Shadowdale DOES have the moral duty to met out death as punishment. This gets into moral muddy waters, but that was my decision as a GM at the time of the game. I'd do the same now.

You, as GM, get to decide if the girls are still alive or not and how happy this ending will be. Would you ever run the scenario such that one or more of the girls are dead and Lord Morngrym carries out the executions? I guess what I'm asking is are you purposely avoiding a potentially unpleasant outcome?

I plan to have them rescue the three girls barring disaster and TPK. By way of example to you next question, the PC's were doing undercover work in the town of Daggerfalls during thier time trying to get in contact with Lord Randal Morn's freedom riders. They were in the only decent Inn in town and had strong (and inaccurate) suspicions that the Innkeeper was a Freedom Rider agent and spy. One of the PC's became frustrated with his (what he thought to be) constant dodging of their questions and blurted out in a crowded taproom, "We know you are working for the Freedom Riders and damnit we need to get in contact with them." The other PC's looked at him aghast and the taproom became deathly quiet. The Innkeeper ordered them out of his Inn and told never to return. They later learned that the Innkeeper was hung by the Governor of the town, and his 13 year old son and only relative Johnathon was sent to Darkhold as a slave. They also learned from the Freedom Riders that the Innkeeper was in fact NOT a collaborator for them. Now the PC's are also searching for Johnathon when they get to Darkhold. No, not all my stories end up with fairytale endings.