Whats the CR/ECL of 400 Kobolds?
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green slime
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But the Kobolds aren't bunched up waiting to be taken out by aoe spells...
So, spread out of a large area, using ranged weapons and fleeing at every opportunity, the hastle and harange.
They set traps. They poison wells. They dig holes. They set up dummies (dress-up a carved log to appear as a kobold). They use tunnels to get around. They consume party resources. Even non-classed kobolds can do these things.
So what is different about kobolds that other races can't do? NOTHING. But that is a fault of the system, with 200+ sentient humanoid races running around with very little to differentiate them. But given this, we know, from previous editions and so on:
Kobolds are small
Kobolds are sneaky little buggers that hide in holes
Kobolds never, ever fight fair.
Kobolds never, ever fight in the open.
Kobolds enjoy inflicting harm (they are evil)
You could just as easily argue that it isn't the class levels, but the spells that cause a challenge. Given a "tribe" of 400 kobolds, you check the source book to see what a reasonable tribe looks like. You adjust the tribe to provide an interesting, different encounter with the PCs. Different in that, this time, the challenge isn't to beat up on one BBEG, or a group of enemy NPCs, or some Behemoth of the Far Realm. If that was the case, just to provide some levelled resistance, why bother with kobolds? or Orcs, or Ogres? Why not just have Cloud Giants instead? Because it somehow fitted the flavour of what the DM wanted to tell. He doesn't want a strike force of 5 levelled kobolds at CR-13. He wanted a kobold community.
In a fight with an 8th level sorcerer lobbing 2 fireballs a round will last a far far shorter time, and barely register on the challenge rating "burning up resources" than a tribe of kobolds waging a guerilla war. One spell, or one full-attack, and he is GONE. THE major resource of the tribe. So if you are recommending that as a strategy to provide a challenge, I think it somewhat flawed.
The guerilla war does NOT kill party members, it DOES cause them to use up precious resources, FAR more than a straight up fight would.
So, spread out of a large area, using ranged weapons and fleeing at every opportunity, the hastle and harange.
They set traps. They poison wells. They dig holes. They set up dummies (dress-up a carved log to appear as a kobold). They use tunnels to get around. They consume party resources. Even non-classed kobolds can do these things.
So what is different about kobolds that other races can't do? NOTHING. But that is a fault of the system, with 200+ sentient humanoid races running around with very little to differentiate them. But given this, we know, from previous editions and so on:
Kobolds are small
Kobolds are sneaky little buggers that hide in holes
Kobolds never, ever fight fair.
Kobolds never, ever fight in the open.
Kobolds enjoy inflicting harm (they are evil)
You could just as easily argue that it isn't the class levels, but the spells that cause a challenge. Given a "tribe" of 400 kobolds, you check the source book to see what a reasonable tribe looks like. You adjust the tribe to provide an interesting, different encounter with the PCs. Different in that, this time, the challenge isn't to beat up on one BBEG, or a group of enemy NPCs, or some Behemoth of the Far Realm. If that was the case, just to provide some levelled resistance, why bother with kobolds? or Orcs, or Ogres? Why not just have Cloud Giants instead? Because it somehow fitted the flavour of what the DM wanted to tell. He doesn't want a strike force of 5 levelled kobolds at CR-13. He wanted a kobold community.
In a fight with an 8th level sorcerer lobbing 2 fireballs a round will last a far far shorter time, and barely register on the challenge rating "burning up resources" than a tribe of kobolds waging a guerilla war. One spell, or one full-attack, and he is GONE. THE major resource of the tribe. So if you are recommending that as a strategy to provide a challenge, I think it somewhat flawed.
The guerilla war does NOT kill party members, it DOES cause them to use up precious resources, FAR more than a straight up fight would.
green slime
First Post
Bauglir said:
You didn't, Numion did, and you quoted my sentence regarding the "20" without commenting on it. Not that you had to, but I was just jiving with you. That's why I had the smiley
Bauglir
First Post
green slime said:
But they never pose an actual threat (assuming average dice rolls at all times - it is of course possible for every kobold to roll nothing but 20s)
But in these cases, the challenge is not provided by the kobolds, but by their devices. If the tarrasque digs a pit trap, and I successfully bypass it, did I defeat the tarrasque, or the trap, and which would you give me xp for?
Agreed
Of course you do (assuming you WANT to challenge the PCs - IMO high level PCs should meet something they can easily handle from time to time). That's my point. A hill giant wouldn't be much threat to a 13th level party. Add in 10 levels of fighter and you've got yourself a challenge, but that doesn't change the fact that a hill giant wouldn't be much of a threat to a 13th level party.
That's fine, but if he wants it to be challenging there needs to be more there than 'just kobolds'
With some coordination the level 8 & levels 1-3 sorcerers can blast out at least 78 average .damage (assuming MADE saves) to some poor unfortunate party member then dive into cover/hide among the masses and do it again the next round. Even if they only do that for 2 or 3 rounds they will do significant damage to any 13th level party that isn't prepared for exactly that
My point exactly. See we've been agreeing all along
Darklone
Registered User
Actually some lvl9 chars here nearly had fatalities against about 30 kobolds some time ago... They hit them by surprise and grappled rogue and the spellcasters. (Just check how many grapple checks you win...)
The fighter nearly went down under the grappling assault the next round. If he hadn't escaped for Cleave party, byebye group. (That happens to twohanded weapon twinks in a grapple)
The fighter nearly went down under the grappling assault the next round. If he hadn't escaped for Cleave party, byebye group. (That happens to twohanded weapon twinks in a grapple)
I'm really at a loss as to why some people are wondering why a DM would throw 400 kobolds at a party this level when there are such bigger threats he could use. Telling him not to waste his party's time. I feel sorry for your players, as your campaigns must be pretty damn predictable if that is your sole criteria for initiating an encounter.
Obviously the DM is trying to tell a story, and if it calls for a battle with 200 pigmy, toothless, vegan gnomes hell bent on taking out the party with thrown brussel sprouts then thats what the story calls for.
Obviously the DM is trying to tell a story, and if it calls for a battle with 200 pigmy, toothless, vegan gnomes hell bent on taking out the party with thrown brussel sprouts then thats what the story calls for.
What does the Kobold have going for it? A *brain*. To say that the traps/tunnels/etc are 'not just kobolds' is to treat them as nothing more than a "you enter a room..." statblock.
What makes Dragons hard to kill? They have a brain, and use it to best advantage. That means not being in vulnerable areas, that means changing terrain to match your strengths, etc.
Sure, I can see your point about 'powerful' traps. There was one suggestion about giving them all tanglefoot bags. Well, 400+ of those is not reasonable, and very expensive. But many of us are *not* talking about that. Traps can be ambushes...
You see 4 kobolds, so the fighter gives chase, the kobold runs over a pit trap,fighter too heavy... or kobold runs under ledge, they drop rocks on fighter, or 12 kobolds take one xbow shot at him, so he doesn't get dex or shield bonus.
Thief finds trap, and tries to disarm it. Kobolds left trap on purpose to delay thief, while disarming he is distracted, no dex bonus, etc.
If the party sticks together, they can only be in one place at a time, if they spread out, the kobolds can keep tabs on ALL of them,and attack the weakest one en masse. Or ignore all of them, at trash their supplies/gear/etc.
Spellcasters *better* kill all the kobolds in one day, because they are *never* going to get enough sleep to gain spells again. Remember, the kobolds don't have to kill, or even hurt the mage, just keep waking him up.
Kobolds stick out of small passages/sewers/tunnels/whatever. They get a free shot or two. Do you chase them? Do they have oil to pour into the tunnel? Do they have a xbow to attack with once you can't move much? Do you just let them get away?
You get attacked from a building, as you start to respond, the 24 from behind fire, again no dex, shield, etc. Or, as the fighter goes to enter the building, with the rogue. The Mage gets grappled from behind and suffers 12 dagger attacks. The kobolds run before the fighter gets back. If the fighter *does* try and come back, the ones in the building keep shooting at him.
The advantage to the kobold is size, and that there are **400** of them. They can be everywhere, all the time. Don't need to sleep, don't need spells to see in dark, don't need to eat, don't need to rest, don't need to keep in close contact with the rest of the party. (note, of course theyhave to eat/sleep; but only as individuals, as a *threat* there is no down time.)
Please note, NONE of the above relies on spells, character levels, dragons, major traps, hostages, npcs, etc. Just kobolds, and their little-but devious- brains.
Also, Cloudkill keeps getting mentioned. Sorry, it just wouldn't be that effective. It moves too slowly, too narrow a straight line path, and sinks to the lowest point, and can't go through water.
Haven't you ever wondered why ants dont' drown in the rain? The tunnels are set with 'low' areas to trap the 'sinking' water to contain it. The kobolds would to the same thing. Or just go to a higher part of the tunnel, or just leave the tunnels for a bit. You may get a few, but maybe not, and probably not worth the 5th level slot.
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What makes Dragons hard to kill? They have a brain, and use it to best advantage. That means not being in vulnerable areas, that means changing terrain to match your strengths, etc.
Sure, I can see your point about 'powerful' traps. There was one suggestion about giving them all tanglefoot bags. Well, 400+ of those is not reasonable, and very expensive. But many of us are *not* talking about that. Traps can be ambushes...
You see 4 kobolds, so the fighter gives chase, the kobold runs over a pit trap,fighter too heavy... or kobold runs under ledge, they drop rocks on fighter, or 12 kobolds take one xbow shot at him, so he doesn't get dex or shield bonus.
Thief finds trap, and tries to disarm it. Kobolds left trap on purpose to delay thief, while disarming he is distracted, no dex bonus, etc.
If the party sticks together, they can only be in one place at a time, if they spread out, the kobolds can keep tabs on ALL of them,and attack the weakest one en masse. Or ignore all of them, at trash their supplies/gear/etc.
Spellcasters *better* kill all the kobolds in one day, because they are *never* going to get enough sleep to gain spells again. Remember, the kobolds don't have to kill, or even hurt the mage, just keep waking him up.
Kobolds stick out of small passages/sewers/tunnels/whatever. They get a free shot or two. Do you chase them? Do they have oil to pour into the tunnel? Do they have a xbow to attack with once you can't move much? Do you just let them get away?
You get attacked from a building, as you start to respond, the 24 from behind fire, again no dex, shield, etc. Or, as the fighter goes to enter the building, with the rogue. The Mage gets grappled from behind and suffers 12 dagger attacks. The kobolds run before the fighter gets back. If the fighter *does* try and come back, the ones in the building keep shooting at him.
The advantage to the kobold is size, and that there are **400** of them. They can be everywhere, all the time. Don't need to sleep, don't need spells to see in dark, don't need to eat, don't need to rest, don't need to keep in close contact with the rest of the party. (note, of course theyhave to eat/sleep; but only as individuals, as a *threat* there is no down time.)
Please note, NONE of the above relies on spells, character levels, dragons, major traps, hostages, npcs, etc. Just kobolds, and their little-but devious- brains.
Also, Cloudkill keeps getting mentioned. Sorry, it just wouldn't be that effective. It moves too slowly, too narrow a straight line path, and sinks to the lowest point, and can't go through water.
Haven't you ever wondered why ants dont' drown in the rain? The tunnels are set with 'low' areas to trap the 'sinking' water to contain it. The kobolds would to the same thing. Or just go to a higher part of the tunnel, or just leave the tunnels for a bit. You may get a few, but maybe not, and probably not worth the 5th level slot.
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Numion
First Post
green slime said:
You didn't, Numion did, and you quoted my sentence regarding the "20" without commenting on it. Not that you had to, but I was just jiving with you. That's why I had the smiley
Thats my mistake though; we use the optional 20 = 30 rule. I assumed kobbies couldn't hit with it, but I guess they could. The trouble is that with prot from arrows and other "standard" stuff I don't see groups of kobolds causing 3 damage and fading.
Of course, you can put the PCs hanging naked in the middle of zero-g hall with antimagic field and have the kobolds shoot them to death . . but thats about it.
I see three mistakes in the sentence: "kobolds ambush 13th level party, damage them and fade succesfully". Emphasis added. They couldn't ambush (likely vice versa), damage (one charge of CLW is hardly resources) and the kobolds wouldn't be able to flee flying and faster characters succesfully.
Numion
First Post
Coredump said:
Yeah but it relied on player stupidity. Oh yeah, and traps. And players stupidity. You always assume that PCs would fight on the kobolds' terms. But the initiative is on the PCs with their superior magics, intelligence (as in intelligence agency, divinations etc.) and mobility. Take one alive or dead and interrogate the hell out of it. Easy with spells or skills.
Let me state again: overcoming "challenge" doesn't require you to a) kill all the kobolds, just deal with them. Like teleport away. Or negotiate with them (easy with intimidate +20). b) or require you to bend over to your DMs sadistical visions of Tuckers kobolds that just don't fail, rules be damned.
Numion, I think the problem is that you keep thinking like this is just one encounter.
PLUS, just how fast are you willing to chase those 3 kobolds. If you are going to go full out, it make make things *much* easier for their secondary ambushes. Remember, they are small, and 400 strong.
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Okay, you have 4 party members, and the mage gets 5 2nd level spells. How many are you going to use to protect from arrows? And it will only last about 2 hours!!! (metamagic not withstanding) Now,what about the rest of these 'standard' stuff. How many spells are you going to use up on defense? How long do they last? What is left for offense? What do you do tomorrow when you can only get 2 hours of sleep at a time,so can't get more spells.
Why? They have a +8, and spot gets modifiers. If there is nothing to spot, or only a peephole etc. Plus xbow has an 80ft range increment, that is -8 to your spot check. If I can distract you, that is another -5 (like running to get to the kobolds, or chasing after them) But I think the biggest one is if there is nothing to really spot. (behind a door, on top of a ledge, etc. Remember, there are *400* of them, the ambushers don't have to be able to see you. And you willconstantly have them watching you from a distance, so that shouldn't be a trigger.
That is one CLW per damage. You keep thinking of this as only one encounter. If they can do one ambush per hour, and damage every other ambush, that is *12* CLW. Also, getting you stuck and on fire, or grappled with multiple dagger attacks, or dropping heaving objects on someone. Those would be more than one CLW. And again, what happens tomorrow, when you haven't have enough rest to get more spells
I can run faster than a chicken, every try and catch one? Plus, this is not the open field. They are attacking from cover, and (assumably) have places to run too. Small opennings, sewers, tunnels, in and out of buildings to lose you, etc.
PLUS, just how fast are you willing to chase those 3 kobolds. If you are going to go full out, it make make things *much* easier for their secondary ambushes. Remember, they are small, and 400 strong.
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