What's the Deal with Staves?

[TheGogmagog]

Yeah. If your staff has zero charges remaining, you can give it fifty charges if you have the Craft Staff feat and the requisite spells, by spending gold, XP, and time equal to the original cost of creating the staff.

-Hyp.

Very funny.

I thought is saw it in sage or faq, but have no desire to look it up, especially if hyp says no, then it certainly doesn't exist. I figured it would have been an option if it had been in print.

 

[calypso15]

Can you please explain how a staff can trigger the spell with 0 charges?

"Well, it's not exactly a standard staff! The Luck bonus to AC and saves is wondrous-itemmy. I'd guess the Shield is a custom at-will spell-trigger ability that uses the activator's caster level, rather than a normal staff power.

-Hyp."

Hypersmuff had it right. It's not a regulation staff, not by any stretch. The Shield (0 charges) is basically a neater way of saying it has the Shield (at will) ability. However, if you take away shield, the luck bonuses, and the recharge ability, it is regulation. It's come in handy a few times, which is what I think staves should do. Be used to cast spells that you rarely need but when you do need them, they'll save your ass.

Calypso

 

[Nail]

Oh well. then double my previous figure. And I don't know how they got their price then.

Me neither.......so, again: anyone know where the DMG got its price for a "Staff of Fire"? It seems Plane Sailing stumbled upon the one staff that was significantly underpriced. (41% discount! Way to go, Plane Sailing!)

No wonder he likes it so much!

Again, the price should be:

Fireball: 3(spell level) * 8 (CL) * 750gp * 1 (most expensive power) = 18,000 gp

Wall of Fire: 4(spell level) * 8 (CL) * 750gp * 1/2 (2 chargees) * 3/4 (second most expensive power) = 9,000 gp

Burning Hands: 1(spell level) * 8 (CL) * 750gp * 1/2 (third most expensive power) = 3,000 gp

Market Price: 9,000 gp + 18,000 gp + 3,000 gp = 30,000 gp

.......which is just a shade above the listed price of 17,750gp.

 

[Evilhalfling]

Me neither.......so, again: anyone know where the DMG got its price for a "Staff of Fire"? It seems Plane Sailing stumbled upon the one staff that was significantly underpriced. (41% discount! Way to go, Plane Sailing!)

does this make anyone else want to just reduce staff prices across the board?
I have only placed one staff in 3.x - a staff of charming, used by Kaorti (+6chr) makes outrages save DCs 21 v 16 wand - He was incharge of fleshshaping, and needed a way to control his beasts in emergancies. The players sold it immediatly. I have 2 unique staves for mid level characters, but they actually cost 11k, even a 25% reduction would put them closer to reach,
figuring them at 1/2 price made them cost effective and desireable.
looking at it with Crunchy Fogs excellent analysis they are terrible -

Staff of the Acolyte Clvl 8
Cure light wounds 2ch
Sanctuary 1 ch
Bless 1 ch
A White ash staff with copper and iron inlay, this staff is carved with a single religious precept from the priests religion.
This staff is designed to teach the young adventuring clerics the advantages of subtle magics. Like the journeyman’s staff It has the additional advantage of not counting as the clerics only staff (HR). In this case the staff must be given away, paid for only in service.
Cost
Primary Spell: Cure Light Wounds (750xspell levelxcaster level) 750x1x8 =6000
Takes 2 charges to activate = 3000
Secondary Spell: Sanctuary (750xspell levelxcaster levelx.75) 750x1x8x.75= 4500
Tertiary Spell: Bless (750xspell levelxcaster levelx.5) 750x1x8x.5= 3000
Base Price :10500 cost to create (5500 gp + 420 xp)

 

[calypso15]

Me neither.......so, again: anyone know where the DMG got its price for a "Staff of Fire"? It seems Plane Sailing stumbled upon the one staff that was significantly underpriced. (41% discount! Way to go, Plane Sailing!)

No wonder he likes it so much!

Again, the price should be:

" Fireball: 3(spell level) * 8 (CL) * 750gp * 1 (most expensive power) = 18,000 gp

Wall of Fire: 4(spell level) * 8 (CL) * 750gp * 1/2 (2 chargees) * 3/4 (second most expensive power) = 9,000 gp

Burning Hands: 1(spell level) * 8 (CL) * 750gp * 1/2 (third most expensive power) = 3,000 gp

Market Price: 9,000 gp + 18,000 gp + 3,000 gp = 30,000 gp

.......which is just a shade above the listed price of 17,750gp."

As I said, you order the spells in order of Spell Level, not cost. So it's:

Wall of Fire: 4(spell level) * 8(CL) * 750gp * 1/2 (2 charges) = 12000
Fireball: 3(spell level) * 8(CL) * 750 * 3/4 (second highest level spell) = 13500
Burning Hands: 1(spell level) * 8(CL) * 750 * 1/2 (third and lower) = 3000

for a total of 28,500gp. Not a big difference in this case, but it can be.

Calypso

 

[Staffan]

As I said, you order the spells in order of Spell Level, not cost. So it's:

Interestingly enough, the rules sort of contradict themselves on this point. In the beginning of the Creating Magic Items section, it says:
[bq]Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don’t take up space on a character’s body use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus one-half the value of any other abilities.[/bq]
Later, in the section on creating staves, it says:
[bq]he cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the staff—375 gp x the level of the highest-level spell x the level of the caster, plus 75% of the value of the next most costly ability (281.25 gp x the level of the spell x the level of the caster), plus one-half of the value of any other abilities (187.5 gp x the level of the spell x the level of the caster). Staffs are always fully charged (50 charges) when created.[/bq]
So, the book can't even keep things straight in a single paragraph (talking about "highest-level" and "most costly"). IMO, the abilities ought to be sorted by cost, not level, otherwise you could do something stupid like including a 9th level spell that takes 50 charges to use, in order to get a 25% discount on the spell you're really looking for.

 

[calypso15]

Interestingly enough, the rules sort of contradict themselves on this point. In the beginning of the Creating Magic Items section, it says:

...

Later, in the section on creating staves, it says:

...

So, the book can't even keep things straight in a single paragraph (talking about "highest-level" and "most costly"). IMO, the abilities ought to be sorted by cost, not level, otherwise you could do something stupid like including a 9th level spell that takes 50 charges to use, in order to get a 25% discount on the spell you're really looking for.

Good point. I noticed that incongruency, and just sorta shook my head and read it literally. However, I have to pull the "That's what the DM is for" card. If someone tried to put a staff by me that did that, we'd have words.

Calypso

 

[Evilhalfling]

I
Later, in the section on creating staves, it says:
[bq]he cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the staff—375 gp x the level of the highest-level spell x the level of the caster, plus 75% of the value of the next most costly ability (281.25 gp x the level of the spell x the level of the caster), plus one-half of the value of any other abilities (187.5 gp x the level of the spell x the level of the caster). Staffs are always fully charged (50 charges) when created.[/bq]
..... otherwise you could do something stupid like including a 9th level spell that takes 50 charges to use, in order to get a 25% discount on the spell you're really looking for.

I think it makes sense, as usually your highest level spell uses multiple charges. Then after that is delt with you figure out the costs for all other spells and rank them in order and apply the 75% and 50% modifiers.
Since most of this thread is complaining about the excess costs of staves, then I dont see the merit in trying to make them more expensive. Also putting in a 9th lvl spell raises the caster level of every spell in the staff to 17th. Doing this negates the advantage of the wielder using his own caster level, and raises the cost for everything. And despite the premade staves, the creation rules only give the option of a spell using 2 charges.

On the homemade staff posted above I was a little uncertain about putting the 2 charge spell in first postion. but since first postion is determined only by level then its perfectly leagal to chose from all spells of that level. Now if a second spell also used 2 charges it would have to be in third postion, because it would be cheaper than a 1 charge spell

 

[Nail]

I noticed that incongruency, and just sorta shook my head and read it literally. However, I have to pull the "That's what the DM is for" card. If someone tried to put a staff by me that did that, we'd have words.

No need, really.

The lower cost for the higher level spell is because it requires 2 charges. The price *already* takes that into account. Interestingly enough, using your method actually comes up with a lower price. Why would you "have words" over something like that? What is the player trying to "slip" by you? The chance to pay more for an item?

Frankly, it makes more sense to order them by cost, rather than spell level....barring the apparent contradiction in RAW. A contradiction, BTW, that seems more like a typo, and less like an actual ruling.

 

[calypso15]

No need, really.

The lower cost for the higher level spell is because it requires 2 charges. The price *already* takes that into account. Interestingly enough, using your method actually comes up with a lower price. Why would you "have words" over something like that? What is the player trying to "slip" by you? The chance to pay more for an item?

Frankly, it makes more sense to order them by cost, rather than spell level....barring the apparent contradiction in RAW. A contradiction, BTW, that seems more like a typo, and less like an actual ruling.

The "having words" was in regards to a player trying to min/max the staff by having a high-level spell that they don't plan on using that takes 50 charges. So, say I want a staff of Fireball (1 charge). Normally, it would be 3*5*750=11250.

Now, consider this staff: Wall of Fire (50 charges), Fire Shield (50 charges), Fireball (1 charge): 4*7*750/50+4*7*750*.75/50+3*7*750*.5=8610 gold. I just saved myself 3000 gold by ADDING spells to the staff.

Calypso