What's the Deal with Staves?

[Prism]

As I see it staffs are generally better for caster level/DC dependant combat spells. I have no problem with burning through a 11k staff of fireballs if it saves me deciding how many of my 3rd level slots to use on learning fireball that day. I would prefer to save my learn't spells for more interesting yet useful spells like teleport, dimension door, polymorph etc. I usually find that if you are going to use blaster style spells to deal with a situation you usually could do with more than you have prepared and staffs are ideal for that. I agree that the book staffs are less useful as they often include spells you may not use

It also means you can leave more spell slots open in the morning to allow for the unusual out of combat spells like the various divinations

Scrolls and wands are good for any rare combat spell where you haven't got time to fill a slot - stuff like slow poison and remove paralysis

 

[Plane Sailing]

And I (respectfully, natch!!) submit that you would not have paid for such a staff. Finding it is different!

And, possibly, your sorceress doesn't use the staff every round of every battle. Do you use it about once an encounter? I'm interested in your experiences. I've used staves *so* infrequently......mostly because the ones found as loot are far from ideal.

Yep, she saved up her money and almost went broke commissioning it The wait for it was dire too, but once it arrived - fantastic!

The staff of fire is one of the few staffs which wasn't hamstrung by arbitrarily including a high level spell to bump up the cost, as happened with the staff of frost and so many others. Only 17,000gp + change. I'd probably think differently if it was a 50,000gp staff

I'll typically use the staff 2-3 times per encounter. I was planning to learn Wall of Fire as a signature spell, but don't have to because of the staff. I never use the burning hands, I'll use the fireball if I run out of offensive slots or (more likely) want to maintain some of my slots for vital spells towards the end of a session.

Wall of fire is un unsung hero of dungeon fights against undead (double damage against undead? why that will be 4d6+18 to all the ghouls charging down this 100ft long corridor then ) and in most encounters is good for battlefield control and also holding people in who have been grappled with telekinesis...

Personally spells which are not needed often, but which you *really need* when you do need them are best served by scrolls. Wands and staffs are best for spells that you are going to use frequently and/or benefit from higher DC's IMO

Cheers

 

[Lord Pendragon]

And I (respectfully, natch!!) submit that you would not have paid for such a staff. Finding it is different!

I had a 12th-level wizard/loremaster who bought one. The ability to really bring the BOOM! when needed, as well as use Wall of Fire to control the battlefield, seemed very useful. Of course, he was a dedicated Craft Wondrous Item guy, so he had the extra money to do so.

 

[Nail]

Yep, she saved up her money and almost went broke commissioning it The wait for it was dire too, but once it arrived - fantastic!

....and I had NOT connected with the idea that your PC is a sorcerer. Whoops! Having a nifty defensive spell like Wall of Fire handy when it's not on your "known spells" list can be handy. I'm not convinced a spell that is both on your known list and also on the staff is a good idea.

So, if you're using it 2 to 3 times per encounter, that mans the staff will last for less than 25 encounters. Considering ~13 encounters per level, that's about 2 levels of your PCs career before it's gone. You've been using it for about 5 levels, so........

BTW, at 7th level (19,000 gp PC wealth) you must have used up most of your wealth to get it!

 

[Nail]

As a thought for Plane Sailing's Sor 12: Since you are unlikely to use Burning Hands, why have it in the staff at all? Surely a staff without Burning Hands would be cheaper?

 

[Nail]

Alright.......how'd the DMG calculate a market price for a Staff of Fire??? I keep getting a number that's much higher from what's listed.

Staff of Fire: Burning hands (1 charge)
Fireball (1 charge)
Wall of fire (2 charges)
Moderate evocation; CL 8th; Craft Staff, burning hands, fireball, wall of fire; Price 17,750 gp.

So here's my calc. Tell me where I goofed, please.

Wall of Fire: 4(spell level) * 8 (CL) * 750gp * 1/2 (2 chargees) * 3/4 (second most expensive power) = 9,000 gp

Fireball: 3(spell level) * 8 (CL) * 750gp * 1 (most expensive power) = 18,000 gp

Burning Hands: 1(spell level) * 8 (CL) * 750gp * 1/2 (third most expensive power) = 3,000 gp

Market Price: 9,000 gp + 18,000 gp + 3,000 gp = 30,000 gp

.......which is just a shade above the listed price of 17,750gp.

Where's the problem?

 

[calypso15]

Alright.......how'd the DMG calculate a market price for a Staff of Fire??? I keep getting a number that's much higher from what's listed.




So here's my calc. Tell me where I goofed, please.

Wall of Fire: 4(spell level) * 8 (CL) * 750gp * 1/2 (2 chargees) * 1 (second most expensive power) = 9,000 gp

Fireball: 3(spell level) * 8 (CL) * 750gp * 1 (most expensive power) = 18,000 gp

Burning Hands: 1(spell level) * 8 (CL) * 750gp * 1/2 (third most expensive power) = 3,000 gp

Market Price: 9,000 gp + 18,000 gp + 3,000 gp = 30,000 gp

.......which is just a shade above the listed price of 17,750gp.

Where's the problem?

From the item creation section: "For many items, the market price equals the base price."

In addition, it says the following: "375 gp × the level of the highest-level spell × the level of the caster, plus 75% of the value of the next most costly ability (281.25 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster), plus one-half of the value of any other abilities (187.5 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster)."

and

"If desired, a spell can be placed into the staff at only half the normal cost, but then activating that particular spell costs 2 charges from the staff."

In this case, then, the highest level spell is Wall of Fire, regardless of how many charges it uses. Therefore, it is taken at full value, while subsequent ones are .75 and .5.

In this case, base price is 4*8*375*.5+3*8*281.25+1*8*187.5=14250

Calypso

 

[Staffan]

From the item creation section: "For many items, the market price equals the base price."

In addition, it says the following: "375 gp × the level of the highest-level spell × the level of the caster, plus 75% of the value of the next most costly ability (281.25 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster), plus one-half of the value of any other abilities (187.5 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster)."

Those figures are creation costs, not base price.

Base price: Formula based on caster level, spell level, item-type constant (750 gp for staff), and multiple-abilities-factor.
Creation cost: Base price/2 plus special components (e.g. if you include Identify in a staff, you add 5,000 gp to the creation cost for the 50 100-gp pearls):
XP cost: Base price/25 plus special XP costs (if you include Limited Wish in a staff, increase XP cost by 15,000 due to the 50 300-XP costs for the LWs).
Market price: Base price + special components + (special XP costs*5 gp/XP)

The book is written in a way that makes it rather easy to get confused about this - the item descriptions and the "estimating gp values" table talks about base price, while "summary of magic item creation costs" and the descriptions in the "Creating Item_type_X" pieces talk about creation costs.

 

[calypso15]

Damn, you're right. I missed the part RIGHT BEFORE "375 gp × the level of the highest-level spell..." that says: "The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the staff".

Oh well. then double my previous figure. And I don't know how they got their price then.

Calypso

 

[KarinsDad]

Considering ~13 encounters per level, that's about 2 levels of your PCs career before it's gone. You've been using it for about 5 levels, so........

I think 13 encounters per level is way off.

Look at first level. 300 XP per CR. 4 PCs. 4000 XP to gain level. 4000 / 300 = 13 CR 1 creatures, not 13 encounters.

I don't know of any 1st level party that thinks that a single Lemure is moderate difficulty. Even with it's damage reduction, two solid hits or one critical with a melee weapon and it's down.


Our group has recently been going up a level about every 3 encounters, however, most of our encounters are fairly serious. Our last one, the total CR of the encounter outweighed the total levels of the party 53 to 30 (but, this was a mega-combat that ended up giving everyone a half of a level in experience, this big of an encounter is fairly rare).

If PS's experiences are similar to ours, 2-3 charges per encounter * 3 major encounters per level (i.e. encounters you would consider using up charges, the dinky encounters don't really count because you probably would not use up charges on them) * 5 levels = 30 to 45 charges. That's in his ballpark.