D&D 5E What's the rush? Has the "here and now" been replaced by the "next level" attitude?

[Umbran]

UPDATE: And one more thing before I depart from this topic. People can watch mindless entertainment like 'Batman Begins' and completely ignore all the freaking plot holes and come out saying how awesome it is, because people who are watching things like 'Batman Begins' are people not used to thinking while they receive their entertainment, a quality they generally don't share with my players.

You were doing great, until you decided to insult people for liking a movie.

There is this immense tendency in humans to build up oneself (or one's points), by tearing down others. I think you probably don't want to use that approach while trying to claim that you and your people are somehow more thoughtful than others. The irony doesn't really support your contention.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I don't know how this thread turned into a Batman debate, but Celebrim's rant actually reminded me that I'm genuinely curious why CN seems to provoke such strong reactions from fans. So I made a thread to discuss it.

Oh, and on topic: Who doesn't like to level up? My experience says that those who don't usually end up playing non-D&D ttrpgs.

 

[billd91]

Four hours of play per xp awarding event. What are you doing that could possibly take that long? People endlessly complain about 4e's combat grind but it's ok to spend about three hours per session on stuff that isn't a challenge to the pcs?

Hell, yes, it's OK. We could conceivably be doing lots of things during that time and having a blast even if the XP haul is light.

 

[Minigiant]

Honestly, I am deeply suspicious of "character concept" and "campaign concept" as central conceits of play. I think it's problematic to start a group centered activity from what amounts to an uncompromising position. I find starting from a concrete ideal of what play should be like leads to (what is for me) dysfunctional play where everyone is centered on their own ideal outcomes rather than concerned with making sure play suits the wants of the entire group. This is why I prefer to approach the start of any game (initial setup and character creation) as a group activity. Might just be my hipster indie game sensibilities poking through.

The issue is not the player being uncompromising but the the game being so.

There are so many characters that D&D locks behind level walls via the levels of the spells, the requirements and frequency of feats, and the availability and level needed for class features. Until the supplemental and variant content come out.

There are many character concepts in D&D which are high level but could be leveled down. This is especially true for the main offender, spells, which get lesser versions and lower level clones in New books. So many are forced to either wait, find, buy, and convince a DM to use the new lower level aspect. Or rush. This rushing would be minimal if the game put a little focus on creating new content not not being afraid to support all levels of play. The game puts a lot of pressure on DMs to do everything and this serves to only desperate the great DMs from everyone else and expose the flaws of every individual DM. If the player is looking at the next level or unable to play the character he really wants, it is up to the DM to work harder and make up for any lack of interest via storytelling and challenges if they want to keep that player.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Ok, so if you would prefer a more tactful way of saying the same thing, the willful suspension of disbelief required of your average 'summer blockbuster' or action movie is much higher than in your average RPG session. Movie makers know that most viewers will willfully turn off their brain, particularly when their senses are being stimulated in a visceral way. Most audience members understand that their own enjoyment would suffer if they thought about it, so they don't. They actually prefer to not think about what they are viewing.

None of that is however true of an RPG.

In truth, I have a reputation of being someone who you don't watch a movie with, because afterwards I'll ruin it for you by pointing out all the inconsistencies because my brain just won't relax and shut off. Quite often my own wife will say, "Don't talk. If you open your mouth, you'll point out how stupid something was and then I'll start hating what I just enjoyed." So if you don't think about your movies, it's you that are engaging the movie 'right', not me. Just because I'm correctly assessing that people are consuming their deliberately mindless entertainment passively, doesn't mean that they are having 'badwrongfun' in doing so.

Hey don't feel too bad. I can't watch cartoons because I always point out how that couldn't have happened.

 

[Hussar]

Hell, yes, it's OK. We could conceivable be doing lots of things during that time and having a blast even if the XP haul is light.

Regularly? As in every single session? You spend an average of three hours out of four on non challenging tasks during play?

I guess that's where the twenty minutes of fun crammed into four hours comes from.

Let's take another example. Paizo Dungeon AP modules generally give you one level half way through and one more at the end. I'm not familiar with Pathfinder modules so I can't comment.

If we use Nagol's advancement speed, then Whispering Cairn should take about ten sessions or forty hours of play. Which seems to be pretty standard from what people talk about.

Celebrim otoh would take twenty sessions or eighty hours of play.

Now does anyone here think it should take eighty hours to play through Whispering Cairn?

Does anyone think Erik Mona does not understand DnD? That his adventures do not reflect how DnD is often played? Is whispering Cairn a shallow hack feat with no story or character development, full of plot holes?

 

[billd91]

Regularly? As in every single session? You spend an average of three hours out of four on non challenging tasks during play?

If you mean things like interacting with the townspeople at their local harvest festival or discussing the morality of chasing after the Collector ship through the Omega Relay to rescue 250,000 colonists vs waiting for the Alliance and Turian dreadnaughts to show up with extra fire power? Yeah, we do a lot of this. You know, role playing and all that.

I guess that's where the twenty minutes of fun crammed into four hours comes from.

Since we are clearly having fun while we do this, that statement ends up looking pretty foolish. Plus, it is clearly misapplied since it is about the overhead of managing rules and slow/complex player decisions in combat rather than playing by extended role play.

 

[Hussar]

I guess it all comes down to ratios.

In Nagol's example you have 13 1/3 challenges per 20 hours of play. So about a 1:1 ratio assuming that challenges take about an hour to resolve.

In your game it's about 1:3. I find three hours of set up for every hour of actually accomplishing something to be way too slow.

And you didn't answer my question. Do you think it should take eighty hours of play to resolve Whispering Cairn?

 

[ForeverSlayer]

If you mean things like interacting with the townspeople at their local harvest festival or discussing the morality of chasing after the Collector ship through the Omega Relay to rescue 250,000 colonists vs waiting for the Alliance and Turian dreadnaughts to show up with extra fire power? Yeah, we do a lot of this. You know, role playing and all that.



Since we are clearly having fun while we do this, that statement ends up looking pretty foolish. Plus, it is clearly misapplied since it is about the overhead of managing rules and slow/complex player decisions in combat rather than playing by extended role play.

Jesus Christ Bill!

Why in the name of all that is holy are you role playing in a role playing game and having fun doing it?

Shame on you.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

I guess it all comes down to ratios.

In Nagol's example you have 13 1/3 challenges per 20 hours of play. So about a 1:1 ratio assuming that challenges take about an hour to resolve.

In your game it's about 1:3. I find three hours of set up for every hour of actually accomplishing something to be way too slow.

And you didn't answer my question. Do you think it should take eighty hours of play to resolve Whispering Cairn?

Doesn't matter if it takes 500 hours in my opinion as long as everyone is having fun. Our group tends to do many many things adventures don't count on.