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What's Up With The Monk?
- Thread starter mattcolville
- Start date
How about 5th level? ;-)
It might be possible to make a non-suckful Monk at 10th, but for a lot of campaigns thats nine long, dull levels of suckage.
Actually, here, I'll just post my Monk for comparison. One thing to note is that I made him at the beginning of 3E and didn't min-max him; I just picked a bunch of Feats and Skills that sounded "Monk-ly". The Skills worked out fine, the Feats are ... um ... sub-optimal.
Monk: Lo Fan Race:Human
Level: 5
STR:15 DEX:18 CON:13 INT:10 WIS:16 CHA:9
HPS:37 AC:18 (flat:14, touch:18) INIT:+8
SAVES:
Ref +8 (w/Evasion)
Fort +5
Will +7 (+9 w/Still Mind)
Unarmed +5 1d8+2
Flurry +3/+3 1d8+2,1d8+2
Dagger+1 +6 1d4+3
Dagger(throw) +7 1d4
Specials: Stunning Attack (5x @ DC15), Fast Move (40'), Flurry, Evasion, Deflect Arrows, Still Mind, Monk Weapon Proficient, Slow Fall (20'), Purity of Body, Unarmed Strike, AC Bonus.
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Dodge
Skills: Balance +12, Climb +9, Jump +9, Move Silent +10, Tumble +14, Hide +10, Listen +5
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Ok, so here's a quick attempt:
(notice I could have left Charisma and Intelligence at 8, but min/maxing that much annoys me)
Human Monk 10
STR 12
DEX 18 (2 increases)
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 10
Using average +1 for HP, that would be 60 hp (correct me if I'm wrong)
AC: 19 (20 with Dodge)
Speed: 120'
Miss Chance: 20%
Saves:
FORT +8
REF +11
WILL +10
Feats:
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Weapon Finesse (unarmed)
Blind-Fight
Abilities:
Unarmed Strike
Stunning Attack (11/day at DC 18)
Flurry of Blows
Evasion
Deflect Arrows
Still Mind
Slow Fall (50')
Purity of Body
Improved Trip
Wholeness of Body
Leap of the Clouds
Improved Evasion
Ki Strike (+1)
Skills (trained only, of course):
Jump +26 (13 ranks/56 skill points)
Tumble +19 (26/56)
Climb +5 (30/56)
Hide +17 (43/56)
Move Silently +17 (56/56)
Attack:
+11/+8/+5 (+9/+9/+6/+3 w/Flurry of Blows)
Damage:
1d10+1
Items:
Boots of Striding and Springing (2.5k)
Monk's Belt (9k)
Minor Cloak of Displacement (25k)
Gloves of Rust (as Gauntlet) (11.5k)
= 48,000 gp, with 1,000 pocket change.
I didn't strive to make him particularly broken in this case, just fun.
And that's the point, right?
(notice I could have left Charisma and Intelligence at 8, but min/maxing that much annoys me)
Human Monk 10
STR 12
DEX 18 (2 increases)
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 10
Using average +1 for HP, that would be 60 hp (correct me if I'm wrong)
AC: 19 (20 with Dodge)
Speed: 120'
Miss Chance: 20%
Saves:
FORT +8
REF +11
WILL +10
Feats:
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Weapon Finesse (unarmed)
Blind-Fight
Abilities:
Unarmed Strike
Stunning Attack (11/day at DC 18)
Flurry of Blows
Evasion
Deflect Arrows
Still Mind
Slow Fall (50')
Purity of Body
Improved Trip
Wholeness of Body
Leap of the Clouds
Improved Evasion
Ki Strike (+1)
Skills (trained only, of course):
Jump +26 (13 ranks/56 skill points)
Tumble +19 (26/56)
Climb +5 (30/56)
Hide +17 (43/56)
Move Silently +17 (56/56)
Attack:
+11/+8/+5 (+9/+9/+6/+3 w/Flurry of Blows)
Damage:
1d10+1
Items:
Boots of Striding and Springing (2.5k)
Monk's Belt (9k)
Minor Cloak of Displacement (25k)
Gloves of Rust (as Gauntlet) (11.5k)
= 48,000 gp, with 1,000 pocket change.
I didn't strive to make him particularly broken in this case, just fun.
And that's the point, right?
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Wolfen Priest
First Post
apsuman said:
We could go to 10th level, then it wouldn't be a big deal to take him to like 15th after that, really. Just a few more feats, skills, items, and one stat boost. I don't know, I suppose we could star over with items, assuming a 'fresh' total amount of accumulated wealth. Whatever.
Wolfen Priest
First Post
Hakkenshi, I was expecting you to give him a ring of mage armor. 
Also, I would at least give him an 8 CHA, and then give him a 14 STR.
Also, I would at least give him an 8 CHA, and then give him a 14 STR.Well, the Nunchaku that I wheedled out of the DM was randomly eaten by an ooze. ;-) Imagine the dishonor of losing the weapon that my temple gave me. :-(
His biggest problem is that he's not at all a good fighter compared to the Barbarian or the TWF Fighter. In combat he can run around and help people, or he can tie up a single unintelligent monster with his high AC, but other party members start asking "Um, wouldnt it be better if you were a Fighter and could kill stuff instead of distracting it until one of the real fighters has time to deal with it?" The Monk absolutely cannot deal with Regen 5 or DR 5, not to mention DR 2/20!
His skills and specials are kind of cool, but they mostly help him and not the party ("DM: Its a jet of rushing water! Everyone make a Balance check!" "Monk: I made mine by 10 points!" "DM: Anyone else? Anyone?" "Monk: I start climbing down the ledge to find my companions. :-(") This is as opposed to a Rogue who has lots of useful skills that help the entire party.
<edit>
Which is not to say I havent had some fun with him; I have taken to Tumbling or Jumping into combat and then asking the DM to rule on whether I looked "cool" doing it. And I almost always look cool. But, frankly I'm not an effective character.
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Carnifex
First Post
Gizzard said:
I don't have much time right now so I can't give an in-depth answer to this, but I'll just say: If you check the tables in the DMG of the appropriate level of wealth for a PC of a given level (rather than the NPC equipment levels, which are much lower) you should find that that magic monk weapon shouldn't be too hard to get...
Henry
Autoexreginated
Tales of high-level monks, while useful, aren't germane to the original intent of the thread, which was comparing lower to mid-level monks to other classes. (Although how someone got a Fighter1/Forsaker 4 is amazing to me! 
)
Ridley's Cohort:
Furthermore, I am sorry that you think the character sucks. Apparently every single point I made in the post was glossed over by "this character is worthless." In what way is he worthless?? He is the EQUAL of a 1st level rogue in terms of versatility on a battlefield, and has more defensive skills, to boot.
1st level rogue, 25 point buy.
S--10
D--15
C--12
I--14
W--8
CH--13
AC 14 (leather armor)
Saves:
fort +1
refl +4
will -1
sneak attack +1d6
Skills:
tumble +6
among others
This character cannot use evasion, cannot stun opponents, cannot use the healing skill effectively, has less hit points than the monk, and has an AC that cannot stack with an armor bonus. He has ONE competent save - one daze cantrip will affect him on average. They can tumble very well - but so can the monk. Plus, he doesn't hit as often, nor does he do the average damage of a monk (except on a sneak attack, where exceeds the monk's damage). He has other skills, sure - but so does the monk. In fact, his skills make up for what the monk can do, that he cannot.
How does this make a monk "useless." I would prefer a cogent reasoning (as I gave above), than just a "he sucks" post.
BTW, in regards to the sharing of capabilites among party members (re: a mage casting mage armor on him): this kind of thing is EXPECTED in a normal party. AS I SAID, the monk ain't gettin' a freebie. He is putting his mobile little butt on the line doing things that the mage cannot and should not do. Similarly, the monk (and the fighter) help the rogue get his sneak attacks in - very rarely in my experience does a rogue sneak attack unaided.
There is no need for any class to be superior - just equivalent. If you are going to rate a class's effectiveness by the x-point-xx damage they do in a round, you are setting a poor standard. It's just not supportable to make a claim that monks of low level are categorically worthless, as I demonstrated above.
BTW, who would I choose as a 5th party wheel? Any class at all - every one of the 11 base classes has something to recommend it. If you wish to choose solely on damage dealing, or on massive skill points, then that's your decision. But there is plenty to recommend a monk of any level as a viable party member, as well as just being fun to play.
)Ridley's Cohort:
Furthermore, I am sorry that you think the character sucks. Apparently every single point I made in the post was glossed over by "this character is worthless." In what way is he worthless?? He is the EQUAL of a 1st level rogue in terms of versatility on a battlefield, and has more defensive skills, to boot.
1st level rogue, 25 point buy.
S--10
D--15
C--12
I--14
W--8
CH--13
AC 14 (leather armor)
Saves:
fort +1
refl +4
will -1
sneak attack +1d6
Skills:
tumble +6
among others
This character cannot use evasion, cannot stun opponents, cannot use the healing skill effectively, has less hit points than the monk, and has an AC that cannot stack with an armor bonus. He has ONE competent save - one daze cantrip will affect him on average. They can tumble very well - but so can the monk. Plus, he doesn't hit as often, nor does he do the average damage of a monk (except on a sneak attack, where exceeds the monk's damage). He has other skills, sure - but so does the monk. In fact, his skills make up for what the monk can do, that he cannot.
How does this make a monk "useless." I would prefer a cogent reasoning (as I gave above), than just a "he sucks" post.
BTW, in regards to the sharing of capabilites among party members (re: a mage casting mage armor on him): this kind of thing is EXPECTED in a normal party. AS I SAID, the monk ain't gettin' a freebie. He is putting his mobile little butt on the line doing things that the mage cannot and should not do. Similarly, the monk (and the fighter) help the rogue get his sneak attacks in - very rarely in my experience does a rogue sneak attack unaided.
There is no need for any class to be superior - just equivalent. If you are going to rate a class's effectiveness by the x-point-xx damage they do in a round, you are setting a poor standard. It's just not supportable to make a claim that monks of low level are categorically worthless, as I demonstrated above.
BTW, who would I choose as a 5th party wheel? Any class at all - every one of the 11 base classes has something to recommend it. If you wish to choose solely on damage dealing, or on massive skill points, then that's your decision. But there is plenty to recommend a monk of any level as a viable party member, as well as just being fun to play.
From my limited experience, I didnt really feel outclassed at 1st level. At 3rd level I definitely did (its at 4th you get the extra attribute point and the d8 damage dice) and I still do (though to a lesser extent) at 5th level. So I'd suggest that first level comparison isnt the best.
Well, the thing about comparing the Rogue and the Monk in fighting ability and coming away saying "the Monk is slightly better here" in combat misses the point that I feel:
If the Rogue does something useful in combat the party is impressed: He's added value to his existence. If he screws up, he can always say, "Hey! Who opens the chests, baby?" His primary function isnt combat; his Sneak Attack is just gravy.
If the Monk does something useful in combat people say, "You did your job. Good work." But when the other Fighter classes outshine him in combat people say, "So why do we have a Monk again?" The Monk is not that good at his primary ability and his secondary abilities arent party-oriented enough to make people care. "OK, Mr I-Have-Good-Saves-and-a-High-AC, we'll all cheer for you when you are the last man standing after a Fireball. Good luck."
Well, the thing about comparing the Rogue and the Monk in fighting ability and coming away saying "the Monk is slightly better here" in combat misses the point that I feel:
If the Rogue does something useful in combat the party is impressed: He's added value to his existence. If he screws up, he can always say, "Hey! Who opens the chests, baby?" His primary function isnt combat; his Sneak Attack is just gravy.
If the Monk does something useful in combat people say, "You did your job. Good work." But when the other Fighter classes outshine him in combat people say, "So why do we have a Monk again?" The Monk is not that good at his primary ability and his secondary abilities arent party-oriented enough to make people care. "OK, Mr I-Have-Good-Saves-and-a-High-AC, we'll all cheer for you when you are the last man standing after a Fireball. Good luck."
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