What's with high-powered campaigns?

[kigmatzomat]

I agree with that. My plot-related challenges (as compared to the "on the road" encounters) require far more setup these days. One of my first BBEGs was a sorceror/acolyte of the skin around 10th level with a small horde of fiendish minions. I spent maybe twenty minutes choosing his spells and figuring out how many spells he'd be down.

More recently I had a cleric17/wight6 and it took over an hour to get his spells chosen, select the casting orders, etc. Equipping him was also far more time consuming.

The social aspect is still about the same. Sure, the situations tend to be more complex but more of the characters (PC and NPC) are fleshed out so it is easier to predict their actions or at least know their motivations.

IMO roleplaying has little need for extensive gear or great stats but rollplaying does. My game has a healthy mix of both because the social is enjoyable but the dicing is satisfying.

 

[ThoughtBubble]

Well, I need to leave for work in minutes, so I'll make this quick.

I don't like being bad at things. For me, low stats inherently do that. And I don't want to be dumb, oblivious, unlikable, weak, sickly, or clumsy. Typically, none of those attributes fit into a character when I'm generating them. In the last game I played, we each had to have one stat with a negative modifier. So, now, there's the matter of fitting my original character concept around that. I played a bard, and chose wis. I tried to play it as being self absorbed, and just not noticing things around like talking on guard duty instead of watching. And, while it rounded out the character, every session I went "Hey! Wait! I get it! How about... Never mind, Rell wouldn't notice." Then sit on the idea and instead shoot into the melee until the fight was over.

 

[jmucchiello]

I think it indicates that the "beat up the monster and take their loot" philosophy breaks down as you get very powerful, so other alternatives may be more satisfying. the trick is finding those alternatives and crafting play around them.

I couldn't agree more. But have you seen many alternatives published by WotC? I can't. Once you start getting into those alternatives, you begin to move away from "standard 3.X." That's just the way it is.

How would WotC or anyone else provide this support? Any plot that does not rely on beat stuff up an loot the corpses requires a lot of campaign background that is easier for a low-level campaign to absorb than for a high-level campaign to absorb. At low level, if you want to use an adventure with heavy NPC interaction, you warp your campaign around the NPCs such that it feels like they were always part of your world. By the time the party is in the teens, too much about the world has been exposed and you cannot just drop in a NPC heavy storyline without major rewrites.

It has nothing to do with "standard 3.x" and more to do with campaign world impact. The adventure writer does not know what motivates your players. He cannot even make a wild guess about this. It's impossible. That's why so many pre-written high level adventures take place off-plane or in remote locales. Those are the easiest things to add to a rich campaign world.

 

[WizarDru]

I've found the reverse, believe it or not. My prep time for non-combat plots is exactly the same now as it was at first level. The big swell in pre-game prep comes when there IS combat.

...

One thing is essential at high levels is that DMs who like to tightly predict and control game flow need to relax and have more faith. When your PCs can cast gate on a whim, you can't always predict their actions, so it's not necessary to try. Instead, just worry about what the bad guys do if the PCs don't interfere, and I think the rest sort of takes care of itself.

I couldn't agree more. My prep time for last weeks game was 1 hour. That consisted of reviewing some notes, and brain-storming how the meta-plot had advanced, based on previous developments. In fact, in some ways, it's even easier, since I have 4 years worth of established plot to build on.

The previous session featured 24 CR19 combatants, 2 CR22s, four CR 23s and a few extra, besides. That's not including the 6 PCs of 22-24th level or any of the friendly NPCs, including a captured advanced Shield Guardian (that looked like a lobster. Honest).

One of the PCs created a knife that cuts through the fabric of reality allowing him to spontaneously cast Gate 3x/day. The group routinely separates to the four corners of the world, teleporting, transporting through plants, plane-shifting, air-walking and shadow-walking with abandon. They shapeshift as if it's a natural ability, fly without thinking about it, routinely walk on walls...and one of the characters routinely makes skill checks in the 70s and 80s.

And yet, at the end of the day, they still face some of the same challenges that they did more than 20 levels ago. High level D&D is very different in some ways, but I still find it to be highly rewarding.

 

[Piratecat]

How would WotC or anyone else provide this support? Any plot that does not rely on beat stuff up an loot the corpses requires a lot of campaign background that is easier for a low-level campaign to absorb than for a high-level campaign to absorb. At low level, if you want to use an adventure with heavy NPC interaction, you warp your campaign around the NPCs such that it feels like they were always part of your world. By the time the party is in the teens, too much about the world has been exposed and you cannot just drop in a NPC heavy storyline without major rewrites.

Hmmm. You know, I bet it is possible to do this. It requires interesting NPCs that are self-motivated, and whose own plot intersects with the PCs... and a hook that draws the PCs into a deeper mystery. It's a little tricky, but it can be done.

I just haven't seen it done in a published product.

I need to think about this some more; it's started my wheels spinning.

 

[GlassJaw]

How would WotC or anyone else provide this support? Any plot that does not rely on beat stuff up an loot the corpses requires a lot of campaign background that is easier for a low-level campaign to absorb than for a high-level campaign to absorb

Well why does it have to be plot-driven? What about generic source material on campaign design or world-building? Just slapping some spells, PrC's, new monsters, and magic items related to cold and snow doesn't make a sourcebook IMO.

What about a book about actually living in a cold environment? Maybe have some info on different cultures and survival techniques. What about the ecology and ecosystem of a

What about a generic sourcebook based on a thieves' guild? They could have a lot of NPC's, criminal activities, connections to the local government, maps of the guild itself, rules for entry (and getting out), and plot and adventure ideas, etc. There are definitely not enough products that have adventures ideas and plot outlines IMO.

These are just some random product ideas of things I don't think WotC would EVER release but they are all things I would be interested in. I don't need anymore PrC's. I want stuff for campaigns, not characters.

 

[The_Universe]

My general philosophy is that high stats are fine, as long as they're not so ridiculous that they remove the potential for challenge.

I let my players roll 4d6, dropping the lowest die 10 times. They can choose 5 of the highest stats, but must begin the campaign with a single stat below 10. It's great to have amazing abilities, but I also think its important to have characters with at least 1 flaw/weakness.

It lets me throw powerful challenges at them, while still challenging them in less extreme situations.

 

[WizarDru]

I need to think about this some more; it's started my wheels spinning.

OSM II: Inquiring Minds!


You will believe a Trilith can Fly!

 

[Captain Tagon]

I let my players roll 4d6, dropping the lowest die 10 times. They can choose 5 of the highest stats, but must begin the campaign with a single stat below 10. It's great to have amazing abilities, but I also think its important to have characters with at least 1 flaw/weakness.

But there are many ways to have a flaw/weakness besides having a bad stat. Habits, mannerisms, skeletons in the closet, and the like make much more sense from a roleplaying standpoint than having an 8 Int or Wis.

 

[shilsen]

OSM II: Inquiring Minds!


You will believe a Trilith can Fly!